.30-30 Ackley Improved and Leverevoultion powder

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Deaf Smith

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Thinking about rechambering an old half magazine Marlin Glenfield 30/30 to .30-30 AckImp.

Then reloading with leverrevolution powder and Nosler 170 gr. Partitions.

Is it worth it? Can it get 300+ fps over the 30/30 with same weight bullets?

Deaf
 
If I were to do another 30-30 ai, I would first take the donor gun and find the maximum load for it with slow for the cartridge powders. Powders from 4064 and slower maybe up to around 4350 burn rate. Then after the rechamber job was done, start at those maximum loads and work up another 5 % or so. Keeping a close eye on the chronograph and when the velocity hit 200 fps over the original maximum stop and if it never makes the 200 fps then call it good. If you really can't get by with 150-200 fps more velocity then might be time to think of a 308 or 3006.
 
Messing with the .30-30 vs. .30-30 AI in quickload, I see a difference of about 60 ft/s. I used 130gr speer flat points to do the comparison. The fastest powders for that config were 3031 and AR-comp for both regular and AI.

As far as I know there is no comprehensive data on leverevolution powder (burn energy, rate, etc.) but Hornady claims to get an extra 100 ft/s with it on midweight bullets. They don't list a lot of powders though. I don't think I'd be going out on a limb to to say there is no chance of a 300 ft/s improvement by combining leverevolution and an AI chamber.
 
Not unless you're going to make it a two shooter and load pointed bullets. The extra speed is wasted on RN or flat nose bullets. I haven't looked at the exact data in this case, but a few months ago was comparing RN vs pointed bullets in 300 WM after a question came up.

One of the better 180 gr pointed bullets fired from a 30-06 will be faster than a 180 gr RN fired from a 300 WM at only 100 yards. Even though the 300 WM started over 200 fps faster. At only 200 yards the pointed bullet from the 30-06 would have about 400 ft lbs more energy than a 300 WM firing RN bullets.

Add even 100 fps to your 30-30 and load it with 165 gr Accubonds and you'll see some difference. Of course you'll only be able to load one in the chamber and one in the magazine.

But using a 308 or 30-06 would be easier.
 
The idea is to make it, with Skinner sights, a 200 yard rifle with the power to take game up to Elk. 170gr Nosler partition at 2400 fps is basically a .303 British in power. Round nose and iron sights just keeps it reasonable as far as range. If I use so I spinzers I might as well go to a bolt action and scope.

Deaf
 
The plain jane 30-30 can will and does take elk to 200 yds.
2400 fps with a 170 isn't going to happen, not without stretching the action or causing other headspace problems. 2300 tops with the 170's. 2500 with the 150's.
 
30/30 AI is supposed to not have much back pressure. Least Mr. Ackley took the locking blocks out of a 30/30 and fired it with just the lever keeping the action closed. The reduced bolt thrust allows reloading to higher pressures. This is because the AI round has strait shoulders, and the case is not tapered.

Turns out there is quite a bit of info out there. Guy gets 180gr bullets at 2325 fps with leverevolution powder.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...xperience-30-30-Ackley-Improved-in-Lever-Guns

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=36086

Deaf
 
Well be sure and buy a chronograph, work up your maximum load before rechambering then start from those maximum and go up not more that 5 %..Don't be surprised if the velocity you see claimed around the net, doesn't show up on your screens.
The only thing I can do is report what my hands on experience with the 30-30 ackley has been. 2300 is doable with 170's, but not much more. 2500 comes easy enough with 150's.
I have a can of Leverlution and some of the Hornady gummy tips to try in the AI , but I have not taken the time to mess with it.
 
When the barrel gets shot out in my Marlin 30-30 I would consider reboreing to 35-30.
The Ackley imp. sounds cool but my 308 Win. fills that need.
I guess I would weigh the cost of the mod. against a new rifle.
 
I'm chicken, I have a have a H&R Handi rifle chambered in 22 Hornet. I thought I would ream it to a K Hornet but I'm happy with the way it is. I guess I'm afraid I would regret the mod. even if it's just a Handi.

I guess if I would have done the mod. before I got to know the gun I would have been more inclined to do it.
 
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7-30 waters if I was gonna change anything.
30-30 Just fine the way it is.
OR a 307.hmmmm
Did anyone ever make a 6.5x07??
I'm on to something.
A 6.5 lever gun. SWEET
Just need some 6.5mm rn bullets
 
30/30 AI is supposed to not have much back pressure. Least Mr. Ackley took the locking blocks out of a 30/30 and fired it with just the lever keeping the action closed. The reduced bolt thrust allows reloading to higher pressures. This is because the AI round has strait shoulders, and the case is not tapered.

Old PO was selling rivers of snake oil. None of his data is instrumented so his results are not repeatable. The idea of taking the lugs off a 30-30 AI to show there is case friction, well I could have told the world that. I discovered case friction decades ago when I had to get a cleaning rod to knock out a stuck case. I have repeated this experiment time and again, as loads developed in 70 F weather occasionally cause problems in 90 F weather.

What P.O Ackley did not do was fire a 30-06 AI and see if that case would stay put without a locking mechanism. I doubt it would, most certainly not the case case head. Around 24,000 psia the sidewalls will give way and the case head would pop out, assuming the front of the case stayed in the chamber. A 30-06 AI ought to operate around 60,000 psia. I have never heard Ackley supporters volunteer to fire their AI cartridges without locking lugs or a locking mechanism, maybe the ones that tried are now dead. I would like to find some Ackley fan boys who would do this and photograph them for the Darwin Awards. It would be funny to see one of them with a cartridge case sticking out of their forehead. Look Ma, no lugs!

P.O Ackley was claiming that his straight case design increased case to chamber friction, therefore it was OK to add lots of powder. His claim was that transferring the load to the case lessens the load on the bolt and therefore, increasing chamber pressures is just wonderful and A OK with AI cases. He never really proved that his case design reduced bolt thrust anymore than any other case, and he totally ignored the problem of where the load goes. In P.O Ackley's world, it just went into the dark universe. It does not, it goes somewhere, and that somewhere is the case and the barrel. He was increasing the stress on the brass case, which is a lot worse than increasing the stress on the bolt, because the bolt is steel. And he ignored barrel loads, though in one of his experiments he bulged the barrel of a Savage M99. He sort of ignored that too.

The only way P.O got the velocities he describes in his book was by creating insanely high pressure levels. There is not a forum for ruined and blown up Ackley Improved rifles, but tid bits about the carnage that P.O created lay about if you look:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6265950&postcount=11

He pushed 150 and 170 grain projectiles so hard in that .30-30 AI Marlin 336, that he started having instant case head separations with factory loads.
He took it back to the gunsmith that did the rechamber, and the guy asked him if he had a death wish.
"What the [fleep] were you doing? You bent the locking lugs and stretched the action, you [dimwit]!!"

To this day, that gunsmith (whom I do business with) keeps two of the fired cases from that 336 on his work bench (one from testing after the rechamber; one from my grandfather's string of case head separations/failures). They're a reminder to him that he needs to get a better idea of the customer's expectations before taking on certain jobs.


You can increase the velocity of the bullet by increasing the amount of powder in the case. Savants on other forums give out a rule of thumb that a 40% increase in case volume provides a 10% velocity increase, implicit is the assumption that this is isobaric. This may be a crude rule of thumb, and I have done nothing to verify this. As stated by a previous poster, you might gain 60 fps, you might get less. What will happen is that your rifle will be hard to sell. I have seen this at gunshows and talked to the vendors. A regular rifle in a "Walmart caliber" will sell, but odd ball cartridges, such as Ackley Improved, they sit on the table through many shows, until they are almost given away.

If you want 308 Win velocities, buy a 308 Win.
 
Brian Pearce in Rifle magazine said he was getting 2200fps with 33grs of reloader 15 and a 170gr bullet from a 20" barrel. Use a 150gr bullet and 36grs of reloader 15 and he said you will get around 2400fps. I think I would be happy with that in my 30-30s.

I have said it before. If your gun doesn't have enough power for the job you don't need more powder. You need more gun. And a 30-30 will kill elk and moose with a well placed bullet.
 
The main effect of the Ackley Improved and other similar cartridges is to use a straighter wall and steeper shoulder to disguise the high pressure of the overloads necessary to produce the claimed high velocity.

Ken Waters Pet Loaded .30-30 standard to 2350 fps... in a 24".
There are more powders to select from now.

How about a Wade Leverpower or the even wilder wildcat .30-.444 that substantially increase case volume?
 
The 30-30 ai is a fun cartridge, especially if you're over stocked with 30-30's in the first place. It won't replace the 308, it will run close to a 300 savage, but do all that in the Winchester 94 or Marlin 336 platform.
I still think that's what Winchester was trying to do when they came up with the failed 307, but the lawyers got involved, so instead of a standardized 30-30 ai in the sleek 94 package, we got a rimmed thick webbed 308 case in a bulbous 94 action with a stock more appropriate for the Model 70...
 
Sounds neat.

Downside is the extra work, and possibly having to expand the neck just to get bullets to feed. Maybe having to do work to the lifter to get the gun to feed (I read 94s are a better candidate in this regard). Running at high pressures and developing your own data.

Upside would be increased brass life, less trimming and less bolt thrust. More velocity, but for anything meaningful, it would have to be higher pressure than a standard 30-30. Supposedly where the straight walls would shine. A theoretical +P load at 15% overpressure should give you close to 2400 fps if you are getting 2200 with a 170 gr. bullet. That is a rough extrapolation, and assuming you are comfortable pushing it to 48300 psi.
 
TL,

Just go to Poco Kelly's website or the Marlin forums. Yes the 30/30 AI does get higher velocities, 200-300 fps more. And you can still use 30/30s in the rifle (in fact that is how you fire form the brass.)

Deaf
 
Just a point.
AI cartridges require a slight set back in a barrel you've had reamed from a standard to an AI. That is what provides the slight " crush fit" with the standard cartridge being fired in the AI chamber. I believe the difference is generally .004. Without that you are going to have serious head spacing issues and maybe other issues. A smith is going to need to screw the barrel in about one thread once chambered.
I shoot quite a few AI rifles and have a lot of fun with them. Not trying to talk you out of it at all.
You'll also need new dies as I'm sure you're aware.
You will probably pick up a little speed with the modifications. Straightening the sides and blowing out the shoulder gives more capacity.
Fwiw, I would not load up an AI on hearsay or on Internet loads. Get a good chrono and QuickLoad and learn how to calibrate QuickLoad with what the chrono tells you.
There is a point of diminishing returns you'll reach in loading it.
Remember, adding speed pretty much equals added pressure.
 
If that's the case, and not having done a 30-30 AI, firing a regular case to fireform would worry me unless you're really jamming the bullet.
 
It's not been a problem, firing factory loads is an excellent way to get fire formed brass, and I have had a lot of shooting fun loading cast bullets in new cases and fire forming.
 
I always felt like Marlin blew it by not going with a .24-.27 caliber bullet.
 
The 30-30 headspace on the rim, so there is no need to set the barrel back when doing that conversion.
My understanding is all they do is take the innards out of the 336, run the reamer through the back of the action, and the job is done. No action work needed either.

Deaf
 
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