30-30 Question

[P Flados]

When I put the 170 gr Speer FN 2041 in Quickload (QL) with a 2.520" COAL, it shows 100% fill and 43,332 psi at 31.8 gr. This is with a 1.140" bullet length and a 0.659" seating depth. QL is showing case capacity as 44 gr H2O. I measured a random once fired 30-30 at 44.5 gr H2O.

QL says that the Sierra bullet is only 0.996" long and the Hodgdon 1.520" COAL gives a 0.515" seating depth. The Hodgdon load data does not show compressed for the 170 Sierra bullet with 36 gr BL-C2, but QL shows 104.3% fill and 55,616 psi and a higher velocity than what Hodgdon got.

The Speer data for the 170 gr Speer FN 2041 shows a 2.550" COAL. The Speer data for H335, Win 748, Win 760 (very similar powders to BL-C2) are also not matching the QL predictions at all when I use the default case capacity. I get much closer to their results if I set case capacity to 50 gr H20.

With the Speer seated at 2.550", QL says seating depth is 0.629" and 32.3 gr gives 100% fill.

My gut tells me that the data is getting messy for case capacity, seating depth and percent fill. Percent fill is a big deal when approaching max loads.

For a quick check to see if QL is close for case capacity and powder density, 100% fill takes 44.3 gr of BL-C2 when I set the bullet for 0.0" seating depth (case full of powder to case mouth),

The above is worse in that the 30-30 is one of those cartridges that is not assured of showing any "signs of pressure" at all as you exceed the SAAMI limit.

I know that many common lever guns were chambered in both 30-30 (42,000 psi limit) and 375 Win (55,000 psi limit), but I have no knowledge if your 30-30 gun was made of the same design, steels and processes of a 375 Win version. Note that the new 360 Buckhammer is rated for 50,000 psi.

The first thing I would do is figure out how much powder it takes to get 100% fill (case full to base of seated bullet). QL says you should be very close to the SAAMI pressure limit with a charge at close to 98% of this value.

 

[.45Coltguy]

I've been as high as 34.0gr 748/170rg FN in my '94, but, 32.0 is just as accurate with not a lot of velocity loss. I just use a mag primer for positive ignition. Seems to work.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

When I put the 170 gr Speer FN 2041 in Quickload (QL) with a 2.520" COAL, it shows 100% fill and 43,332 psi at 31.8 gr. This is with a 1.140" bullet length and a 0.659" seating depth. QL is showing case capacity as 44 gr H2O. I measured a random once fired 30-30 at 44.5 gr H2O.

QL says that the Sierra bullet is only 0.996" long and the Hodgdon 1.520" COAL gives a 0.515" seating depth. The Hodgdon load data does not show compressed for the 170 Sierra bullet with 36 gr BL-C2, but QL shows 104.3% fill and 55,616 psi and a higher velocity than what Hodgdon got.

The Speer data for the 170 gr Speer FN 2041 shows a 2.550" COAL. The Speer data for H335, Win 748, Win 760 (very similar powders to BL-C2) are also not matching the QL predictions at all when I use the default case capacity. I get much closer to their results if I set case capacity to 50 gr H20.

With the Speer seated at 2.550", QL says seating depth is 0.629" and 32.3 gr gives 100% fill.

My gut tells me that the data is getting messy for case capacity, seating depth and percent fill. Percent fill is a big deal when approaching max loads.

For a quick check to see if QL is close for case capacity and powder density, 100% fill takes 44.3 gr of BL-C2 when I set the bullet for 0.0" seating depth (case full of powder to case mouth),

The above is worse in that the 30-30 is one of those cartridges that is not assured of showing any "signs of pressure" at all as you exceed the SAAMI limit.

I know that many common lever guns were chambered in both 30-30 (42,000 psi limit) and 375 Win (55,000 psi limit), but I have no knowledge if your 30-30 gun was made of the same design, steels and processes of a 375 Win version. Note that the new 360 Buckhammer is rated for 50,000 psi.

The first thing I would do is figure out how much powder it takes to get 100% fill (case full to base of seated bullet). QL says you should be very close to the SAAMI pressure limit with a charge at close to 98% of this value.

Your results are very similar to what I got in Gordons. When I ran my simulations, it showed that Hodgdon’s minimum charge of BL-C(2) at just a smidge over 42,000 PSI.
I think I’ll stick with TAC this time around and use my BL-C(2) elsewhere.

 

[AJC1]

When I put the 170 gr Speer FN 2041 in Quickload (QL) with a 2.520" COAL, it shows 100% fill and 43,332 psi at 31.8 gr. This is with a 1.140" bullet length and a 0.659" seating depth. QL is showing case capacity as 44 gr H2O. I measured a random once fired 30-30 at 44.5 gr H2O.

QL says that the Sierra bullet is only 0.996" long and the Hodgdon 1.520" COAL gives a 0.515" seating depth. The Hodgdon load data does not show compressed for the 170 Sierra bullet with 36 gr BL-C2, but QL shows 104.3% fill and 55,616 psi and a higher velocity than what Hodgdon got.

The Speer data for the 170 gr Speer FN 2041 shows a 2.550" COAL. The Speer data for H335, Win 748, Win 760 (very similar powders to BL-C2) are also not matching the QL predictions at all when I use the default case capacity. I get much closer to their results if I set case capacity to 50 gr H20.

With the Speer seated at 2.550", QL says seating depth is 0.629" and 32.3 gr gives 100% fill.

My gut tells me that the data is getting messy for case capacity, seating depth and percent fill. Percent fill is a big deal when approaching max loads.

For a quick check to see if QL is close for case capacity and powder density, 100% fill takes 44.3 gr of BL-C2 when I set the bullet for 0.0" seating depth (case full of powder to case mouth),

The above is worse in that the 30-30 is one of those cartridges that is not assured of showing any "signs of pressure" at all as you exceed the SAAMI limit.

I know that many common lever guns were chambered in both 30-30 (42,000 psi limit) and 375 Win (55,000 psi limit), but I have no knowledge if your 30-30 gun was made of the same design, steels and processes of a 375 Win version. Note that the new 360 Buckhammer is rated for 50,000 psi.

The first thing I would do is figure out how much powder it takes to get 100% fill (case full to base of seated bullet). QL says you should be very close to the SAAMI pressure limit with a charge at close to 98% of this value.

Case volumes measured by me.
Rp 46.4
Ppu 45.8
Fed 45.5
I haven't tested win or Hornaday yet.

 

[P Flados]

Switching to TAC will not completely fix the "uncertainty in the data" issue. The Speer data sheet did not include TAC and even if it did, I would still be concerned about using the data at this point. The Hodgdon data does not have the Speer bullet regardless of your powder choice. Any bullet substitution requires understanding impact on percent fill.

Confirming you case volumes in gr H20 and then finding how many gr of BL-C2 powder fill the case would eliminate a lot of the concerns. Measuring your bullet length to confirm seating depth is even easier to do. If you can get some chrono data, that would allow even better fine tuning with Quickload. The final piece of the puzzle would then just be deciding what calculated pressure you would set as max.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Switching to TAC will not completely fix the "uncertainty in the data" issue. The Speer data sheet did not include TAC and even if it did, I would still be concerned about using the data at this point. The Hodgdon data does not have the Speer bullet regardless of your powder choice. Any bullet substitution requires understanding impact on percent fill.

Confirming you case volumes in gr H20 and then finding how many gr of BL-C2 powder fill the case would eliminate a lot of the concerns. Measuring your bullet length to confirm seating depth is even easier to do. If you can get some chrono data, that would allow even better fine tuning with Quickload. The final piece of the puzzle would then just be deciding what calculated pressure you would set as max.

I measured my case volume at 44.3 gr H2O, and I measured the Speer bullet length and length from the base to the cannelure. It measures 1.02” compared to the 1.00” Sierra #2010 170 gr FP. Both are flat base bullets, with seating depths of .53” and .51” respectively in my cases when using an OAL of 2.52”. If I seat my Speer bullets .02” long, they will still seat to the middle of the cannelure, and should be equivalent to using the Sierra bullet.

The load I worked up to was 29.5 gr TAC at 2005 fps tested on the chronograph, and should be just over 35,000 PSI according to GRT when seated to 2.52”. If I seat the bullets a little longer to 2.54” they show to be a few hundred PSI lower in pressure. Either way, they show to be good pressure-wise according to GRT. I’d be interested to see what Quickload shows.

Anyway, thanks for the info and advice. It never hurts to be careful.

 

[W.E.G.]

29.5 grains of TAC with any 170 is going to be well-within safe limits for a modern 30-30 rifle.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

29.5 grains of TAC with any 170 is going to be well-within safe limits for a modern 30-30 rifle.

View attachment 1187340

Thanks. Your pressure is a little higher than my prediction, but the seating depth is a tad deeper.

I still had the model up on my PC, and I changed the seating depth to what you have, and got just over 37,000 psi with a load density of 91%. Not identical, but close enough to make me feel OK about this load, especially when I seat to the shallower depth.

 

[P Flados]

Changing the Speer bullet length in Quickload "fixed" the big conflict in predicted results vs. test results on the Speer data sheet.

The previous BL-C2 load still calculates to be on the hot side, but well less than the 360 Buckhammer rating.

For your 29.5 of TAC load, I adjusted OAL for a seating depth to 0.53 and set case capacity to 44.3 gr H20. QL gets 1998 fps at 32,997 psi from a 24" gun.

If the above load meets your needs, everything indicates your pressures are well below the limit.

If you do want to push velocities up a bit, you may want to re-visit BL-C2. With the improved inputs for seating depth and case capacity, the following QL table should be much closer to reality than what we previously ran.

Cartridge          : .30-30 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .308, 170, Speer FN 2041
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.529 inch = 64.24 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon BL-C2

CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms
-06.3   87    30.00   2033    1561   30608   4724     90.6    1.573
-05.6   87    30.20   2047    1582   31200   4761     91.0    1.560
-05.0   88    30.40   2061    1603   31805   4798     91.3    1.548
-04.4   89    30.60   2075    1625   32422   4835     91.6    1.535
-03.8   89    30.80   2089    1647   33054   4871     92.0    1.523
-03.1   90    31.00   2102    1668   33699   4907     92.3    1.511
-02.5   90    31.20   2116    1690   34358   4942     92.6    1.499
-01.9   91    31.40   2130    1712   35031   4977     92.9    1.487
-01.3   92    31.60   2144    1735   35720   5011     93.2    1.476  ! Near Maximum !
-00.6   92    31.80   2158    1757   36422   5044     93.5    1.464  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   93    32.00   2171    1780   37142   5078     93.8    1.453  ! Near Maximum !
+00.6   93    32.20   2185    1802   37877   5110     94.1    1.441  ! Near Maximum !
+01.3   94    32.40   2199    1825   38627   5142     94.3    1.429  ! Near Maximum !
+01.9   94    32.60   2213    1848   39395   5174     94.6    1.417  ! Near Maximum !
+02.5   95    32.80   2227    1872   40181   5205     94.9    1.405  ! Near Maximum !
+03.1   96    33.00   2240    1895   40985   5236     95.1    1.393  ! Near Maximum !

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Changing the Speer bullet length in Quickload "fixed" the big conflict in predicted results vs. test results on the Speer data sheet.

The previous BL-C2 load still calculates to be on the hot side, but well less than the 360 Buckhammer rating.

For your 29.5 of TAC load, I adjusted OAL for a seating depth to 0.53 and set case capacity to 44.3 gr H20. QL gets 1998 fps at 32,997 psi from a 24" gun.

If the above load meets your needs, everything indicates your pressures are well below the limit.

If you do want to push velocities up a bit, you may want to re-visit BL-C2. With the improved inputs for seating depth and case capacity, the following QL table should be much closer to reality than what we previously ran.

Cartridge          : .30-30 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .308, 170, Speer FN 2041
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.529 inch = 64.24 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon BL-C2

CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms
-06.3   87    30.00   2033    1561   30608   4724     90.6    1.573
-05.6   87    30.20   2047    1582   31200   4761     91.0    1.560
-05.0   88    30.40   2061    1603   31805   4798     91.3    1.548
-04.4   89    30.60   2075    1625   32422   4835     91.6    1.535
-03.8   89    30.80   2089    1647   33054   4871     92.0    1.523
-03.1   90    31.00   2102    1668   33699   4907     92.3    1.511
-02.5   90    31.20   2116    1690   34358   4942     92.6    1.499
-01.9   91    31.40   2130    1712   35031   4977     92.9    1.487
-01.3   92    31.60   2144    1735   35720   5011     93.2    1.476  ! Near Maximum !
-00.6   92    31.80   2158    1757   36422   5044     93.5    1.464  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   93    32.00   2171    1780   37142   5078     93.8    1.453  ! Near Maximum !
+00.6   93    32.20   2185    1802   37877   5110     94.1    1.441  ! Near Maximum !
+01.3   94    32.40   2199    1825   38627   5142     94.3    1.429  ! Near Maximum !
+01.9   94    32.60   2213    1848   39395   5174     94.6    1.417  ! Near Maximum !
+02.5   95    32.80   2227    1872   40181   5205     94.9    1.405  ! Near Maximum !
+03.1   96    33.00   2240    1895   40985   5236     95.1    1.393  ! Near Maximum !

Thank you for going to the trouble of double checking. Gordon’s had the bullet length of 1.140” as well. Strange that both programs had the bullet length wrong, but I measured and double checked it at 1.02”. I like the TAC loads, but will probably push the load up a little in future loadings. I also plan to work a little more with BL-C(2) as well, but I do think the Hodgdon data is perhaps a little off. An older Hodgdon manual that I have shows a maximum load of 34 grains.

 

[AJC1]

Thank you for going to the trouble of double checking. Gordon’s had the bullet length of 1.140” as well. Strange that both programs had the bullet length wrong, but I measured and double checked it at 1.02”. I like the TAC loads, but will probably push the load up a little in future loadings. I also plan to work a little more with BL-C(2) as well, but I do think the Hodgdon data is perhaps a little off. An older Hodgdon manual that I have shows a maximum load of 34 grains.

When you load up a batch, I'd appreciate feedback on how well Gordon's responds to fired data inputs. I haven't used that function yet.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

When you load up a batch, I'd appreciate feedback on how well Gordon's responds to fired data inputs. I haven't used that function yet.

I’ve not used that feature either, but I may have to play around with it.