.30 Carbine sucess & question on crimp

[jediagh]

I was finally able to get out and shoot the .30 carbine reloads I have been working on and
1) I did not blow up
2) the M1 .30 carbine auto-ordnance paratrooper rifle did not blow up
3) all the ammo did work

Here are the prior threads on this adventure.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=685974
and
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=688190

This is what I shot:
Bullet used: Berry's Preferred Plated Bullet 110 gr RN (.308)
Cases: Aguila cases trimmed to 1.286 to 1.284
Powder: Winchester 296

10 rounds @ 14 grains with Lee FCD
05 rounds @ 14 grains with NO Lee FCD

15 rounds @ 14.2 grains with Lee FCD
05 rounds @ 14.2 grain with NO Lee FCD

10 rounds @ 14.5 grains with Lee FCD
05 rounds @ 14.5 grains with NO Lee FCD

In shooting order
five - 14 grain with Lee FCD and they all worked.
five - 14 grain without Lee FCD and they all worked.
five - 14.2 grain with Lee FCD and they all worked.
five - 14.2 grain without Lee FCD and they all worked.
five - 14.5 grain with Lee FCD and they all worked.

Next had my cousin load 10 rounds mixing the 14 and 14.5 grain so only he knew what the order was.
Shoot them all and did noticed some difference.

Shoots at 14 grain felt smoother. Shoots at 14.5 I felt the gun rise a bit more, it was more snappy, and a follow up shot required me to bring the gun back to position more. I was able to guess 7 of the 10 rounds correctly in terms of what the grainage was.

So based on these results I will continue to load at 14 grain as the rifle likes it as so do it.

The only question is why does the Lee FCD in this case (this round) not do anything? Seems like I can just remove it from the process (ie. no crimping needed) and get away with it for this rounds.

In terms of accuracy, no real idea with this outing. I was more concern that the gun would blow up or not cycle. Now that I know it won't I can load up more.

In my first 2 outing with the rifle and using Aguila commercial ammo on the 25 yard my groupings were good but the issue was the rifle was aiming high. Did not have a ruler with me but when using this target on the 25 yard.
http://www.ak-47.net/store/images/M16A2 zero.jpg
(link to image very big)

I would aim for the center and the holes were appear right above the head. When I would aim for the bottom of the target the holes would appear at the center.

I was using this target today
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/jediagh/guns/target/target_09_bulleye_pirate.jpg
(link to image big)

and while I was aiming for the center the holes were appearing on the 8 so again still aiming high.

My next outing I will be taking a ruler so I can measure the amount that it's high and then use this post info
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=4147.0;wap2
to increase my front sight with this stuff J-B Weld
http://www.jbweld.com/product/j-b-weld/

BTW I did notice that the brass was nasty dirty and sort of had a 'slimy' coating to it still. I'm using a brass catcher so nothing is hitting the ground but it looks like the imperial wax (some of it at least) was still on the casings and they are blackish right now. If I take a rag I can wipe it off though.

Also as for the crimp die. when I crimped the ones I did and I had the crimp set to MAX I could feel it but just barely. I did not see a measured difference with my capilars either nor was the bullet squished like it is when I use the Lee FCD on my .45.

 

[Blue68f100]

When I started reloading 35+ yrs ago there was no FCD. I still don't own one. If you had a problem you had to figure out why and correct it. For me the FCD is a fix for someone not doing something right. It can cause a lot of problems if your shooting lead or bullets that are oversize since it has a sizing ring. So if your bullets are chambering as they should there is no reason to use the FCD. Beside most Berry's bullets are slightly over size, 0.0005" than a std jacketed bullet. So it could cause a loss in neck tension.

There are a lot of person swear by it but I'm not one. You will find most reloaders that have been reloading for a long time see no need in one. If a round will not chamber correctly learn how to trouble shoot and fix the problem. You will be a better reloader in the long run.

I like there design in the way it crimps but not the sizing ring. Any time you size a live round you run the chance of loosing neck tension. Beside the fact your constantly working the brass which will shorten the life of it.

 

[jcwit]

When I started reloading 35+ yrs ago there was no FCD. I still don't own one. If you had a problem you had to figure out why and correct it. For me the FCD is a fix for someone not doing something right. It can cause a lot of problems if your shooting lead or bullets that are oversize since it has a sizing ring. So if your bullets are chambering as they should there is no reason to use the FCD. Beside most Berry's bullets are slightly over size, 0.0005" than a std jacketed bullet. So it could cause a loss in neck tension.

There are a lot of person swear by it but I'm not one. You will find most reloaders that have been reloading for a long time see no need in one. If a round will not chamber correctly learn how to trouble shoot and fix the problem. You will be a better reloader in the long run.

I like there design in the way it crimps but not the sizing ring. Any time you size a live round you run the chance of loosing neck tension. Beside the fact your constantly working the brass which will shorten the life of it.

Words of wisdom!

And away we go!!!!!

 

[Patocazador]

296 is rather dirty. My Auto Mag and .44 Mag brass looks like that too when I use 296.

 

[jediagh]

@pat
Ah so winchester powder in general is dirty? I use win231 for my .45 and that brass is always dirty as well.

@blue
I don't want this to be a lee fcd bash or praise. I was going to just say Icrimped and not mention lee fcd at all. After all the fcd is just a crimp die + something else that may or may not touch your bullet.

My question is seems like Ican skip crimp all together yet the books say to crimp???
I did this.
1) resize and deprime
2) expand neck
3) drop powder
4) seat bullet

The books say to crimp yet Idid and did not and was ok for this cailber.
Why?

What does crimp do then? Does it not remove the belling???

 

[Kevin Rohrer]

If you want to beat your gun up, that is up to you. If not, try duplicating the military load of 13gr. of H110. I believe 296 and H110 are the same thing, or at least, Hodgdon's load data is the same for both powders.

 

[jediagh]

@kevin

Starting load per lyman 49th edition says 14g of H110 max of 15.5.
Thus why Iwent with 14g.

Where did you see 13g?
Btw this is a replicate .30 carbine from auto-ordinance so its not old (50+ years) like the real .30 carbine rifles.

 

[jcwit]

WC 820 was the orginal powder used for the 30 cal. Carbine. Very close to H110, load data is the same.

 

[Blue68f100]

The crimp on the 30 carbine is to remove any flare used to aid in seating the bullet. As long as the round chambers ok your good to go. The powders I used in the 70's was 2400 for lead and 296 for jacketed. I was shooting an old 7 1/4" BlackHawk back then. All I know when I started shooting the full house jacketed with the 296 the shooter around me left because of the blast it generated.

 

[jediagh]

@jcwit
are you following me from our "home website" ingo?

 

[jcwit]

I'm a member here as I'm a member of other firearm forums. Hope that doesn't create a problem for you!

 

[gamestalker]

I've been at it for 30+ years and have never, nor will I ever own a FCD. As already said, if your doing everything else correctly, you'll never need those FCD dies.

GS

 

[Hit_Factor]

For handgun loads

In this thread examples were given if the bullet is not the correct size the FCD may cause a problem. So a proper solution might be to swage lead bullets to the correct diameter.

If for some reason a sizing die doesn't quite make it to the base of the case, a FCD is a wonderful tool for fixing that problem on a progressive press. Sure, you could roll size the brass offline and add hours and hours to production time, but why bother?

Another option is buying undersized dies, but these are not available for as many calibers as the FCD is.

The FCD is very easily adjusted without tools (from a light kiss to a heavy crimp), whereas some crimp dies require adjustment like a sizing die.

A huge number of competitive shooters use the FCD effectively for their handgun loads. I shoot about 50 matches a year, the amount of time spent reloading is significant, adding another step offline would be significant.

For Rifle loads

The FCD for rifles is just a crimp die, it doesn't have a sizing ring and the collet applies the crimp. Tools for adjustment are the same a sizing die. Again, a light kiss to a heavy crimp is possible.

I've been loading for a long time and FCD is a tool used to reload many calibers.

 

[Blue68f100]

For handgun loads

In this thread examples were given if the bullet is not the correct size the FCD may cause a problem. So a proper solution might be to swage lead bullets to the correct diameter.

Lead bullets are sized to your specific barrel which is a min of 0.001" over size. Swaging lead bullets down will do nothing but cause leading, poor accuracy. This is on reason the FCD should never be used on lead bullets.

Like I said earlier, learn to do things right and yo will not need the FCD.

 

[Hit_Factor]

These two statements are functionally equivalent.

"Lead bullets are sized to your specific barrel which is a min of 0.001" over size."

and

"So a proper solution might be to swage lead bullets to the correct diameter."


The following statement is confusing, How else can you size a lead bullet if the size you need is not available? Swaging an oversize to the correct size is the correct procedure. Undersized will result in the following.

"Swaging lead bullets down will do nothing but cause leading, poor accuracy."

The following statement is only relevant to lead bullets and cases with little taper. It is by no means an absolute.

This is on reason the FCD should never be used on lead bullets."


More complete info is. Slug your barrel to determine the actual diameter. Then select a lead bullet a minimum of .001" over size. If bullets are not available swage them to the correct size.

Continued complete info.

If the FCD, with a carbide ring (not the simple crimp style) is too small to fit over the correct diameter bullet plus the thickness of the brass case, select another method of crimping. Of course, this probably won't be a factor in cases that taper sufficiently to allow the carbide ring to simply size the bottom of the case.

Edit to add.

The Lee Factory Crimp Die for 30 Carbine is simply a collet crimp, it doesn't re-size anything, it doesn't have the carbide ring. It is extremely adjustable as mentioned earlier. So the real question is, can the FCD remove the flare? Yes. Does it unnecessarily work harden the brass? No. If used improperly can it? Yes, but improper use is not the topic. The OPs reloading manual told him to crimp, and he wants to follow the directions provided with the results he need. He claimed it didn't do anything for him. But he either doesn't have the tools to measure his results or he doesn't know what to measure. He isn't using lead, he is using plated, so the lead comments are off topic. With that said, plated bullets doe share some of the characteristics of lead bullets. The most important aspect of crimping plated bullets is not breaking/tearing the plating.

Measuring the diameter of the rounds at the case mouth (prior and after) will indicate whether or not the crimp die did anything.

Sometimes new things come down the road that fix a problem and we are all better for it. 30 years ago we didn't have these computers with a great way of sharing information, but we have chosen to use them.

 

[jediagh]

@hit factor
Thank you for understanding what the fcd does. Many people just see fcd and run and complain all about it.

I took a measurement of the rounds before and after using the fcd and did not see a difference in the measurement I took. I measured the diameter of the bullet at the base of where it meets the brass. They were the same before and after. But like you said Imay not be measureing correct (ie. Don't know what to measure).

My question was and is. It appears that Idont have to crimp for this caliber and thus do not need to do step 5 (crimp) like the lyman book says to do for reloading. Yet that seems odd since I do crimp for .45. But then again that is a pistol and this is a rifle round. Have only reloaded for those 2 calibers.

If Idont have to crimp great its one less step to take if Ido well ok Idon't want to skip a step and put myself in danger. As it stands right now I'm on the fence at it appears the crimp die is doing noting.

I have tried pushing the bullet in with my hands and by pressing into wood and Icannot before I crimp. That is what Iread to do to ensure your ammo does not move and why crimp is needed.

as far as I could tell none of my plated bullets have any cracks from the crimping or show signs of cracking and everything Ishoot worked.

 

[Hit_Factor]

Since I load on progressives I would leave it in place. If some of the cases were longer there could be more bell in the mouth and I would need to crimp that back into shape for reliability. For me, it's a quality control step that adds no work.

Sounds like you are using a single stage setup, so crimping is an extra step. If the ammo you produce meets your needs then it may be your choice not to crimp.

Good job measuring with the calipers. Another method is dropping the finished round into a case gauge.

Other measurements would be FPS with a Chrono, this helps you sense check for over pressure and calculate trajectories.

Lastly, accuracy must be measured, compare group sizes between the different loads you have worked up. After all, what happens down range shows how successful we are as reloaders.

 

[jcwit]

I would crimp the cases whether using the FCD which I see in the case of the 30 Carbine is a collet crimp or using the crimp feature of the seating die, which is how I happen to do it. I say this so you do not have a chance of bullet setback when the bolt slams forward. This of course helps to keep pressures down.

I see that the 30 Carbine FCD is not the same using the post sizing ring used in pistol calibers. These can cause post sizing of the bullet when using lead plated or cast bullets.