.30 Tokarev, .30 Mauser, .30 Luger?

[Nightcrawler]

Okay, as I understand it, the 7.65x25mm round used in the Mauser broomhandle is dimensionally identical to 7.62mm Tokarev, it's just lower presssure and has lower velocities.

Right or wrong?

Is the 7.65mm Mauser round the same thing that's referred to as .30 Luger? I'm assuming that, if it is, it was chambered in a Luger pistol at some point. Was it ever called .30 Mauser? I remember hearing that somewhere.

What was the typical performance difference between the Broomhandle cartridge and the Tokarev TT-33 cartridge?

 

[BigG]

You are right that the Mauser and Tokarev rounds are the same dimension, as well as the Borchardt, IIRC, and the pressure is higher in the Tokarev.

The 7.65 Luger is the 30 Luger in Americanese. The Luger cartridge is unique and formed the basis for the 9mm Luger when necked up and shortened slightly. Both caliber Lugers use the same magazine. HTH

 

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

You've got it on the Mauser/Tok connection. They probably started at similar pressure/velocities, but over time Tok was loaded hotter, probably for Soviet subguns.

.30 Luger was the original chambering for the Luger pistols. It is much shorter than the Mauser. 9mm Luger was created by opening up the .30 Luger case and making it into a straight wall cartridge. Velocities are a bit lower than .30 Mauser, but my manual puts them within 15 fps in all loads (due to the higher operating pressure of the Luger case).

.30 Mauser is a slightly lower pressure cartridge, which explains a case .10" longer than Luger. The overall length is .20", due to the Mauser's pointery bullet.

Basically, Luger tried to keep the Mauser performance by using higher pressure in a shorter case and a blunter bullet. The net result was a similar round that fit in a grip magazine.

Any pistol chambered in 9mm will feed and cycle .30 Luger with just a barrel swap. In countries with such restrictions, .30 Luger was a common substitute for 9mm. Ruger sold a special P89 for awhile with both barrels, even.

 

[Nightcrawler]

It'd be interesting to find a .30 Luger barrel for a 9mm pistol, just for kicks.

 

[Mike Irwin]

The Tok and Mauser rounds are dimensionally similar, but not identical.

Close enough, though, that ammo for one will generally chamber and fire in the other.

The Tok round was an outgrowth of several thousand C96 Mausers that Germany sold to the Soviet Union in the 1920s.

The handgun wasn't too popular, but the round was.

 

[mete]

I watched "The MacIntosh Man" on TCM channel recently ,There are two broomhandle mausers in that movie. I wish I could get a poster from that movie - the scene where Dominique Sanda fires the M96.

 

[Jim Watson]

To take it back a generation farther, the round started out as the 7.65 mm Borchardt.

Mauser picked it up and souped it up a bit for the C96. We know the rest of that story, as Russia liked the round in the Bolo Mauser and increased power some more for the Tokarev and all those burp guns. Next the Czechs really magnumized it for the CZ52 and their submachineguns.

Schwartzlose and Mannlicher used it in pretty much the original loading, and WHB Smith warned early on against firing Mauser or Russian ammo in those guns.

The reason the 7.65 Luger is shorter than the 7.62 Mauser etc, is because the Luger used the Borchardt toggle action and kept the magazine in the butt, unlike Mauser, and also moved the recoil spring to the grip frame. This would have made for a very wide butt with the original 25 mm case - look at the CZ52 - so they shortened the brass to 21 mm so as to get a comfortable grip.

 

[Mike Irwin]

I watched "The Mummy" again last night, and there were tons of C96 Broomhandles being weilded by the Majai...

 

[Cthulhu]

-Make sure, though, not to use any Czech M48 .30 Tokarev in a Tokarev or (most definitely) a C-96.
The boom may be pretty impressive.-

If only the CZ-52 was stronger than the TT33 Tokarev...Roller lock mechanisms are strong, but that doesn't do you any good if the barrel fails where they are relieved for the roller mechanism, which is the failure mode seen in CZ-52s. The only thing that this ammo has blown up are CZ-52s. Everything else is speculation and gunshop lore. Keep it out of C96s, though.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"If only the CZ-52 was stronger than the TT33 Tokarev...Roller lock mechanisms are strong, but that doesn't do you any good if the barrel fails where they are relieved for the roller mechanism, which is the failure mode seen in CZ-52s. The only thing that this ammo has blown up are CZ-52s. Everything else is speculation and gunshop lore. Keep it out of C96s, though."


Please see my EYEWITNESS account of one TT-30 ruined by Czech ammo in the thread below.


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22071&highlight=tok

 

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

You got to figure that if a Tokarev will cycle regular 9mm with just a barrel change, it's probably not up to dealing with that hot Czech stuff. The gun dates from the '30s, after all.

 

[Nightcrawler]

The gun dates from the '30s, after all.

And the 1911 dates originally from, what, 1909? Yet they have 'em chambered in .45 Super and 10mm.

I don't want to get into the big flap about the Tokarev vs CZ-52 again. There was a big long discussion about it.

In short the Tok is NOT a weak design. There's one member here who has one converted to 9x23mm Winchester.

However, other members have seen Tokarevs explode on the hot Czech ammo.

Still other members have seen CZ-52s barrels burst.

I'm just confused, myself.

 

[Apple a Day]

the numbers

The 7.63 Mauser/Tok and 7.65 Parabellum have the same base size (9.98mm) The Mauser's case is 25.15mm long with an overall length of 35.08mm, while the Parabellum is 21.6mm long and an overall length of 29.85mm.
The typical Mauser round has a mass of 5.57 grams while the Parabellum has a mass of 6.02 grams (both ball).
All info according to Jane's Infantry Weapons

 

[Mike Irwin]

Everyone who is talking about TT vs CZ is missing one critical point in the entire equasion...

The at-best QUESTIONABLE nature of Soviet steel and heat treating methods, especially on those guns produced by slave labor in the late 1930s and under the pressures of war in the 1940s.

I think anyone who converts a Tok to 9x23 is truly playing with fire.

But, at least, in doing so, they'll be putting in a new barrel, which helps a LOT in keeping the Genie in the bottle.

 

[PCRCCW]

Well Im no expert but in my years of researching the CZ52 online...I found the round that blows up guns...and low and behold. My dad had some for his gun. This stuff will send your Chinese TT33 Toks into
space also....read on.

Its not just Czech Tok. ammo...Its the 52" headstamp Bulgarian surplus ammo that likes to make one big gun lots of little pcs. This stuff can have a case pressure of over 55K PSI... Tokarev ammo is typically between 40-50K PSI from what most factory loads figure out to. Beware of the Bulgarian "52" headstamp. BOOM! Check out the link below.....

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/4653/bad.htm

Youll think you have a GLOCK Just kidding....

Shoot well