The yet to be invented 30/357 Sig, it may just prove to be the best handgun cartridge

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DaveR, would you believe a .44/.50AE?

I hope so, because it's already out there, commercially. It's called the .440 Cor-Bon, and it's a doozy! :D

440240_219x.jpg



http://www.cor-bon.com/store440corbon.htm

(Thinking about getting my Desert Eagle rebarreled for this, woo-hoo!)
 
Tamara, if you did that...

1. I doubt there'd be much left of the attacker for the coroner to identify.

2. BHP9/Wild Romanian would probably argue that it's exterior ballistics are worthless. ;)
3. Speaking of CCW, I shot a .45-70 American Arms derringer once. Once. :what:
 
Gewehr98,

3. Speaking of CCW, I shot a .45-70 American Arms derringer once. Once.

I always figured the point behind those things was when you were faced with the choice of a broken wrist or becoming grizzly chow. :eek:
 
I've heard that claim before too, Tams.

I've been able to find two bona fide instances of fatal heart shootings.

Neither was "instantly fatal."

The first is recounted in the 4th edition of Cartridges of the World, pg. 368 in which a 5-year-old boy was killed by a pellet from a spring air gun. He died approximately 40 minutes after being wounded while undergoing surgery to repair the damage.

The second incident was forwarded to me by a coworker when I was with American Rifleman magazine. It was an accidental shooting involving alcohol.

Unfortunately I no longer have the write up, but as best as I can recall the individual was hit in the chest with a pellet from a Crossman air rifle.

In his alcohol fueled state he shrugged it off and continued to recreate with his friends.

The next morning he was found dead.

Autopsy revealed that the pellet had penetrated the front side of the heart and lodged in the heart tissue at the rear of the heart. Death was the result of slow seepage of blood into the pericardial sac interfering with the heart's ability to pump.

Estimated time of shooting to death was some hours.

I'd be interested in hearing of any other documented instances in which a .177 pellet to the heart was a death laser, but I have a very funny feeling that it's a short list.
 
Got one handy? I'd be interested to see it...

Come on Tamar get serious. You have a TV set don't you. If not just call NBC, ABC or CBS they could probably give you a list a mile long. Where do you think I saw this, right on TV. AS a matter of fact I just suddenly rememberd yet another one right in the Cleveland area. A young boy was picking fruit and was killed in a drive by thrill shooting at what I would consider long range for a pellet rifle. In that case however I do not recall if he dropped dead instantly but he did die.

The silly argument that you and Mike will now make is how many seconds did so and so take to expire and never mind that the same thing happens even with powerful large bore handguns and never mind that the person drops over and cannot even function. If the person the drops over and lives one second longer than the one that is hit with the handgun then you will say , Ah Ha, see how much more powerful the .50 S&W is, it killed someone in 1/4 of second and the pellet gun took 1/5 of a second.

Some of your replys seem to now border on the rediculous. I suppose next you will claim that I do not have a tv or that such incidents never could have taken place. Anyone with a TV though will remember at least a half a dozen such incidents over even the last couple of years. I beleive one of the news programs like 60 minutes or 20/20 may also have done a special on high power pellet guns. Anti-gun , well of course but it does point out that they do kill and they are a lot more lethal than many parents can even imagine especially suburbanites that seem to know little or nothing about weapons but that seems also to include you too.

And by the way I too was once shot by a low powered pellet gun, not the high powered kind many years ago when I was a kid. I was shot right in the back and don't give me any of your bull that a person is not instantly incompacitated even by being hit by even a low powered pellet gun. It happened to me and I can tell you it was not any fun and I could not even catch my breath for several minutes let alone do any one any return harm.
 
Come on Tamar get serious. You have a TV set don't you. If not just call NBC, ABC or CBS they could probably give you a list a mile long. Where do you think I saw this, right on TV.

Hey...you said "documented cases". Hard as it may be to accept, "I done saw it on the teevee" does not constitute verifiable documentation. Do not shift the burden of proof for your assertion. You made the assertion, now you have to supply the proof. Telling someone to "look it up elsewhere" is sloppy debating technique. Every time someone asks you for proof to back up your claims, you shrug it off and say "everybody knows, it was in XYZ magazine/the TV a while back". Next time you post an assertion like that, please furnish the verifiable source for your claims.

Some of your replys seem to now border on the rediculous.

I am getting very tired of your continued belittling of other posters, just because they (rightfully) doubt your unverified claims. There are some statements in your threads that "border on the rediculous (sic)", but they're usually preceded by your user name.

To recap: Extraordinary assertions require extraordinary proof, not nebulous redirections to unspecified magazines or TV broadcasts. Also, you will keep a civil tongue in your head in future debates on this board. This is supposed to be a serious pool of knowledge populated by mature individuals, so I advise you to adjust your contributions accordingly. So far, they have done little except the addition of some warm yellow stream into said pool.
 
I was shot right in the back and don't give me any of your bull that a person is not instantly incompacitated even by being hit by even a low powered pellet gun. It happened to me and I can tell you it was not any fun and I could not even catch my breath for several minutes let alone do any one any return harm.

I tried to stay out of this because the Wild Pomeranian does enough to undermine his own posts. But I couldn't help responding to this one as I just had a conversation about getting shot on the orbital bone (eye socket) with a pellet gun. Hurt like crazy but I was functional. I've also had injuries far more severe than being hit with pellets and remained functional enough to double tap a target if it had been necessary. So, I absolutely doubt that this is a true statement [edited to get the point across without making stopping to WP's level of ad hominem attacks].
 
Correct but very misleading. You are attempting to compare a high velocity rifle bullet with a much slower and bigger moving handgun bullet.

No. it goes directly to proving that your claims are incorrect.

Not only is this not comparing apples to apples and unfair but also proving what I have been saying all along, i.e. that smaller high velocity rounds outpenetrate slower bigger moving projectiles.

See, this is a good example of the continued contradiction of what you say. Unfair but proves you correct. Once again, you are wrong. The cite goes directly to disproving what you stated and demonstrates that you are not being consistent in what you state. Once again, and you may continue to ignore it if you wish, velocity does not guarantee penetration. Penetration in a ballistic barrier is not the same as penetration in human flesh.

With all due respect to your credentials two people (you and I) can both look at the same shooting incident and come to completely different conclusions.

You may, but I will stick to the facts. If there is not barrier involved, it is not a matter of opinion. That IS simple fact.

I think were you and I differ is that I think that the smaller high velocity hand gun bullet can be just as deadly as the slower moving bigger bullet.

Nope, I disagree with you on the actual and factual issues such as velocity equates to penetration, smaller is better, and the confusion of penetration against a barrier vs. human tissue.

Because they did survive and live to tell about….

Anecdotal “evidence†is not evidence.

The woodchuck and the steer are much better test mediums than non-living objects such as ballistic gelatin.

Not even close to reality.

Come on Tamar get serious. You have a TV set don't you. If not just call NBC, ABC or CBS they could probably give you a list a mile long.

In other words you have no proof to your claims. This seems very standard with you.

Sorry BHP, but your whole point is ridiculous. You continue to post contradictory arguments, change the subject, insult posters, make specious comparisons (i.e. woodchuck to human), make claims of “documented cases†and refuse to submit them, etc.

Penetration is not based on velocity. Smaller is not necessarily better. Woodchucks, metal plates and 55 gallon drums are not adequate test mediums for terminal ballistics. Claiming you saw it on TV is not documentation.
 
You know, I believe that this is exactly the same sort of thing that led to this individual's early exit from The Firing Line -- very high static to substance ratio -- mostly static, little actual substance.

Countless assertions with absolutely no factual basis to back them up, despite repeated requests for such information. I hesitate to use the term lies (but am increasingly less inclined to do so), but at this point, given the vast load of claims vs. the absolute refusal to provide any sort of supporting material, I can only conclude that at best much of this "information" is flights of fancy.

Here's a little more first hand factual information.

In the summer of 1981 I was shot in the thigh with a .177 projectile, which penetrated roughly 1.5" into the heavy muscle.

Not only did it not incapacitate me, it actually proved to be QUITE animating in giving me the extra rage-induced edge while I beat the living snot out of the kid who shot me.
 
Mike,

In the summer of 1981 I was shot in the thigh with a .177 projectile, which penetrated roughly 1.5" into the heavy muscle.

See? This is what the "Three Pump Rule" was intended to prevent! ;)

(It's a thousand wonders that me or any of my friends survived to adulthood with both eyes intact. :eek: :p )
 
Tams,

Did you know that it's a well documented fact that over 1 million people a year are instantly killed by stern looks that stop their hearts?

For all intransient porpoises, this makes stern looks much more effective than any projectile-based man stopper.

I know this to be true because I saw it on TV. It was reported on a show hosted by Jonathan Frakes... :)
 
"Come on Tamar get serious. You have a TV set don't you. If not just call NBC, ABC or CBS they could probably give you a list a mile long. Where do you think I saw this, right on TV."

I've got a TV, and I spend quite a bit of time both watching and listening to the news on the major networks, both air and cable.

Given what's been happening at the New York Times over the past couple of weeks, though, and other such high-profile "news" scandals such as the GM "pickup truck of fireball death" and the Food Lion "we'll serve rotted food to anyone," I'd be disinclined to view any "news" reports on such events with anything other than an extremely biased eye.

Add to that the fact that the major news organs can't seem to get the most basic facts about firearms straight, and in fact often go out of the way to spin articles involving firearms in the most unpositive light possible, I find it to be rather humorous that anyone would rely on these organizations for any meaningful information on the topic.

I've done your research for you, which once again isn't surprising.

And once again, your claims don't hold water. Which again isn't surprising.
 
Penetration is not based on velocity. Smaller is not necessarily better. Woodchucks, metal plates and 55 gallon drums are not adequate test mediums for terminal ballistics. Claiming you saw it on TV is not documentation

Sir you seem to be a highly intelligent person so I would like to hear your views and explanations of the tests that P.O.Ackley conducted with the .220 Swift.

As we all know it was a .22 caliber projectile weighing 48 grains traveling at about 4,100 fps or even a little less than that being as factory quoted velocities over the years have often proved to be somewhat less when actually chronographed. At any rat the bullet was going very fast, far faster than the weapon tested against it which happened to be a 30-06 armor piercing round.

Now the Swift penetrated the armor and the 30-06 armor piercing round did not.

I would be very interested in hearing your explantion as to this phenomina as it seems to be at odds with your above quote. Am I missing something here. Please explain your views on this matter. Thank You vey much.


I would also recommend you read back issues of the Cleveland Plane dealer as to the death of the boy in question. I did not quote this in the past because in that particular shooting (one of many that I heard about or read about) I do not remember how fast the boy expired. I would image for those that are really interested even a police and autopsy report would be available. I do not have time to do the leg work for anyone but it is available for those who want it.

In the past I have seen woodchucks drop dead from a .22 rimfire and never even move except for a tail twich and I have seen the same size chuck run 50 yards and almost make it to its burrow when hit with a 30-06 in the exact same spot. So in all sincerity does anyone really blame me for getting upset when the accusation is made or inferred that a human when hit by a high power pellet gun would not or could not expire immedieately?

And as I said before I remember seeing a special on TV about this happening. True, the news media often gets things wrong and is not above exaggurating but to infer that they always lie is not fair to them either. One could always get the police report when seeing something on the news media but to say automatically that is must not be true because it might not fit in with ones philosphy is not to give both sides of the arguement a fair investigation.

I have seen deer when hit at a measured 200 yards at my friends farm with the .223 run about 25 yards and fall down just as dead as when hit with the 3006. The deer hit with the 3006 ran no farther and did not fall down any faster or die any sooner. If the deer was hit through the heart or lungs with either caliber it did not seem to make a wit of difference as to how far they ran or how quick they dropped. Now it seems to me that if the bigger caliber caused faster blood loss or more shock surely we would have been able to observe this.

Now I realize that my 40 years of experience in hunting counts for nothing because I did not have a video camera with me at the time and did not have 100 eye witnesses to sign a document to verify all this.

It also seems strange to me that I seem to be the only one that is constantly asked for documentation when others seem never to have the same question asked of them as long as they take the accepted traditional view of things. It almost reminds me of Galileo when he tried to prove the world was not flat. Since it was not according to the thinking of the times he was considered somewhat of a heretic.
 
And with that, let's put this one to rest. The horse started out pretty dead, and its flagellation did not improve upon it.
 
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