.300 AAC for a youth deer rifle?

[IdahoSkies]

I need to put together a new youth deer rifle. While Idaho is known for wide open spaces were our hunting group sets up our youth is burnt out timber bowls, shots are about 50-200 yards. (That is the distance across the bowl and saddles. There are longer shots, but realistically the kids are not ready for them through the standing trunks that far.

I have small kids. (I’m 5’3” my wife is 5’ even). I have one bolt youth rifle my oldest used to harvest her first deer last year. The next in line is ready to come out this year as well, but I do not have a rifle that fits her or that she can handle. I have other full power (.270, 30-06) rifles for when they are a bit bigger. (These two are the first of 5 kids who likely will be out with us).

I would like to use an AR platform because they know it (I have one built in .22 lr that they handle well), the stock length is easily adjustable, the weight is something they could manage and I have a couple of spare lowers around. I’m not looking for an SBR, but rather something in 16 inch barrel length.
They have shot my 5.56/.223 and were not supper pleased with the recoil but could do it. My oldest didn’t have a problem with a 22-250’s recoil she used last year once she was on the animal.

Cutting to the chase, is .300 blackout, supersonic ( not sub) in a 16 inch tube enough gun, or do I need to be looking at a 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel? (The .300 is my preference because of recoil concerns and cost since I have most of the bits for it already).

 

[yugorpk]

The 300 BLk works great for deer under 200 yards. I wouldn't , and haven't. hesitated to use it for that purpose. With 110 grain Varmageddon or Barnes VOR-TX coming out the tube at 2400-2500 FPS you'll do just fine.

 

[Sunray]

The .300 AAC was pretty much designed for just such emergencies. Advertised to allow people who aren't legally allowed to use .223 to use an AR style rifle. AAC also says, "Factory ammo is 1010 fps for 16" barrel." The factory being Remington. Hornady tested with a 16 too. Energy's a bit light at 200 with their 135. Reloading can fix that.
No varmint or match bullets of course.

 

[justin22885]

the .300 blackout with proper handloads will match anything 7.62x39 can do, so it would be fine for deer out to a couple hundred yards.. the 6.5 grendel and 6.8SPC will certainly be more accurate and flatter shooting with the grendel having as much muzzle energy as 7.62x39 and 300 blackout but with a higher ballistic coefficient bullet to retain more energy downrange, and the 6.8SPC especially with 120 grain SSTs will achieve the same feat, but youre probably going to be handloading to save money in which case the .300 blackout works fine

if youre only concerned with supersonic loads you could also consider 7.62x40WT, which with handloads will actually surpass factory 7.62x39 and .300 blackout giving you more energy and range, 7.62x40WT is made on .223/5.56 brass same as blackout, just a longer case for the shorter supersonic bullets

 

[rule303]

The .300 Blackout is almost as powerful as the 7.62x39, and significantly less than the 30-30 at the muzzle. Definitely on the low end of the spectrum for deer sized game, but will certainly do the job at reasonable ranges if the bullet is placed properly.

 

[justin22885]

The .300 Blackout is almost as powerful as the 7.62x39, and significantly less than the 30-30 at the muzzle. Definitely on the low end of the spectrum for deer sized game, but will certainly do the job at reasonable ranges if the bullet is placed properly.

what are you talking about 30-30 being on the low end for deer? you realize for many, many countless decades people were killing deer cleanly and regularly with nothing more than a .44-40, and if you dont know anything about 44-40 its ballistics match 45acp and those are rifle velocities, not pistol

you certainly dont need a 300 win mag to kill a bambi, not even close, not even a 30-06, not even a .308 and id be VERY confident in my ability to drop one with 45acp out of a carbine so no, 30-30, 7.62x39, 300 blackout, these are not on the low end for deer, theyre in the "more than enough" spectrum

 

[justin22885]

i will say this about the 300 blackout.. factory 300 blackout ammo is often directed not only towards suppression but also short barrel usage, as such its often loaded with magnum pistol powders, H110 is a very common powder used in .300 blackout loaded ammunition

so if your primary purpose is hunting youre probably not going to be running a short barrel either, id recommend doing handloads with something like a 150 grain SST hornady or speer 150 grain SPBT with a decent rifle powder, my preference is IMR3031 but there are many options... with a real rifle powder, longer barrels, and heavier bullets the 300 blackout can actually surpass the ballistics of most factory 7.62x39 ammo (7.62x39 handloads vs 300 blackout handloads are about even)

 

[Corn-Picker]

what are you talking about 30-30 being on the low end for deer? you realize for many, many countless decades people were killing deer cleanly and regularly with nothing more than a .44-40, and if you dont know anything about 44-40 its ballistics match 45acp and those are rifle velocities, not pistol

you certainly dont need a 300 win mag to kill a bambi, not even close, not even a 30-06, not even a .308 and id be VERY confident in my ability to drop one with 45acp out of a carbine so no, 30-30, 7.62x39, 300 blackout, these are not on the low end for deer, theyre in the "more than enough" spectrum

I'm pretty sure that he meant the 300 BO is on the low end for deer, not the 30-30. I wouldn't shoot a deer past about 100 yards with the BO or a 223, maybe a little further with the 7.62x39.

Handloads must be different than factory ammo, because from what I see the 300 BO doesn't quite match the 7.62x39.

 

[justin22885]

I'm pretty sure that he meant the 300 BO is on the low end for deer, not the 30-30. I wouldn't shoot a deer past about 100 yards with the BO or a 223, maybe a little further with the 7.62x39.

Handloads must be different than factory ammo, because from what I see the 300 BO doesn't quite match the 7.62x39.

as i said, most 300 blackout factory loads are loaded with magnum pistol powder intended for SBR performance, so no, most factory ammo wont match 7.62x39.. but with the same powder loaded to its 62kpsi max and 7.62x39 loaded to its 51kpsi max and the same weight bullets you'll find theyre almost identical

7.62x40WT is capable of surpassing both of them though, is also made from cheap .223 brass, common .308 bullets but its only downside is needing special mags.. if someones hunting with an AR-15 type weapon and wants to maximize performance, id go with the 7.62x40WT instead for a hunting rifle

 

[Newtosavage]

When I start to worry about .300 BO or 7.62x39 being "enough" for deer, I remind myself how many deer I've taken very cleanly with my muzzleloader, shooting a .44 cal. pistol bullet at a whopping 1800 fps., then I stop worrying.

Deer are not hard to kill with a big enough projectile through the lungs.

 

[[email protected]]

IMR3031 is too slow for the 300blk.

 

[justin22885]

IMR3031 is too slow for the 300blk.

try it, it worked very well for me in handloads for 5.56, 7.62x39, and .308 so im sure itll work just as well for 300 blackout as well

 

[yugorpk]

Nothing at all wrong with H110 in a 300 BO.

17 grains behind a 150 grain bullet is coming out a 16" barrel over 2050 FPS .

20 grains behind a 110 black tip barnes or Nossler 110 Varmageddon bullet chronos out of my Ruger bolt gun at 2400 FPS.

10 grains behind a 225 Hornady runs 1050 FPS.


Its a very versatile powder.

 

[redbullitt]

Absolutely! Not my choice for long shots, but in the woods it would do very well.

 

[justin22885]

Nothing at all wrong with H110 in a 300 BO.

17 grains behind a 150 grain bullet is coming out a 16" barrel over 2050 FPS .

20 grains behind a 110 black tip barnes or Nossler 110 Varmageddon bullet chronos out of my Ruger bolt gun at 2400 FPS.

10 grains behind a 225 Hornady runs 1050 FPS.


Its a very versatile powder.

thats about 200fps less than youd get with a proper rifle powder

 

[yugorpk]

Doubt it. This isnt a .223 or .308 case or even a 7.62X39. Problem is the case volume isnt big enough to use most rifle powders effectively so tricks youve learned in regular rifle rounds don't work on the 300 BO.. Most of the faster rifle powders take up too much volume and you end up running out of space before you can get enough powder in there to drive it any faster. The factory 110 Varmageddon is running about 2500 FPS from a 16 inch barrel and that load is so hot it practically destroys the brass pushing the neck out nearly 1/8" at times. There are some outliers to be sure but that 2500 FPS with a 110 bullet is about the limit. ( I'm sure someone will pipe in with their 2800 FPS load ) . Don't think of the 300 BO as a rifle cartridge because its simply not big enough to be one. Think of it as a hot pistol round and load it accordingly with hot pistol powder.

 

[justin22885]

uuh, ive already explained this to you, most factory 300 blackout loads are designed for either subsonic performance or really short barrels, not 16+ inch hunting rifles with supersonic ammunition.. because most 300 blackout loads are for shorter barrels and suppression they typically use magnum pistol powders like H110

if you want a higher performing supersonic full length rifle load, use real rifle powders, many people have reported good success using both IMR3031 as well as 4895 along side side powders like H335 in full power 300 blackout loads

and the 300 blackout is capable of matching performance with the 7.62x39, which matches the .30-30, so youre telling me a 300 blackout isnt a rifle cartridge? then that means 7.62x39 and 30-30 arent either which would be a completely asinine assumption to make based solely on the fact that factories use pistol powder in their SBR loads

 

[yugorpk]

Youve already explained this to me? Seriously? YOU WERE WRONG. How many 300 BO rounds have you loaded? Ive done around 18,000 and Ive got 20 or so varieties of powders to play with including all the classic rifle powders. The case is substantially smaller than the 7.62X39 and there isnt much room to work with . Most factory loads arent loaded to run SBR because they want to run that way. It happens to be a good SBR cartridge because the case is small and it HAS to be loaded like a magnum pistol round to get enough velocity out of it even with a longer barrel so it naturally lends itself well to SBR'ing. .

 

[justin22885]

Youve already explained this to me? Seriously? YOU WERE WRONG. How many 300 BO rounds have you loaded? Ive done around 18,000 and Ive got 20 or so varieties of powders to play with including all the classic rifle powders. The case is substantially smaller than the 7.62X39 and there isnt much room to work with . Most factory loads arent loaded to run SBR because they want to run that way. It happens to be a good SBR cartridge because the case is small and it HAS to be loaded like a magnum pistol round to get enough velocity out of it even with a longer barrel so it naturally lends itself well to SBR'ing. .

you do realize theres a hell of a lot more to loading cartridges than case capacity, right?.. you do realize the blackout can safely be loaded about 10,000 PSI higher than 7.62x39, right?.. and you do understand enough of basic physics to understand what drives a bullet is the pressure generated on the base of the bullet.. and you do also know you can calculate that amount of thrust by finding the area of the base of the bullet and multiplying that by the pressure

quite simply loaded to higher pressures the .300 blackout has a power curve that starts out high and drops due to case volume whereas the 7.62x39 has a lower, but longer pressure curve in a 16 inch barrel, net result when both cartridges are loaded to their max pressure yields about the same result out of a 16 inch barrel

next you'll be telling me a 45acp is sooooo much more powerful than a 9mm because like omg.. its so huge right?.. geeze

and no, it doesnt have to be loaded like a magnum pistol round, its not a magnum pistol round, it operates at much higher velocities than magnum pistols in much longer barrel lengths, pistol powders are fine for SBR and subsonic loads but they are by no means optimal in a longer barrel rifle

seriously, how many magnum pistols do you know operating at 62,000 PSI in a 16 inch barrel?

 

[yugorpk]

I understand that stuff because I'm an engineer and i don't mean train driver and I have extensive actual practical experience with the cartridge and I own 6 guns chambered in it. Try loading and tell me how fast you can get that round going. Its not anything like loading for a .223 or a .308 or even 7.62X39.

Nothing worse than people who have never done something before giving advice they learned on the internet.

 

[justin22885]

if you owned that many guns chambered in it, youd know a 110 grain 300 blackout has MORE usable case capacity than a .223 at about 26.8 grains h20 vs about 24.8 grains for a 62gr .223, to compare a 357 magnum which you seem to think the blackout better compares with has only a 15 grain usable case capacity with a 158 grain bullet

nearly double the case capacity of the magnum rounds, 2 grains more than .223, and spends a longer time in the barrel with a larger diameter turning that pressure into higher levels of thrust.. and youre still telling me its a low capacity cartridge better associated with magnum pistols?.. and you have aaaaaaaaaaall this knowledge on it and you still make those completely absurd claims?

300 blackout will perform just fine with rifle powders.. also, i seriously doubt youve experimented with any powder outside of what others told you to load it in, so to sit there and act as if you have some experience or vast knowledge following a frickin guide posted by others doesnt impress me, experiment a little with powders, maybe get a little knowledge in phyics (lmao at engineer) and you'll be surprised what you come up with

 

[climbnjump]

if you want a higher performing supersonic full length rifle load, use real rifle powders, many people have reported good success using both IMR3031 as well as 4895 along side side powders like H335 in full power 300 blackout loads

The usable case volume of the 300 BLK is only about 19 grains, depending on the bullet seating depth. You just simply cannot get enough rifle powder in that case to get any sort of velocity at all. Any of those powders listed will actually result in slower velocities than can be achieved with pistol powders such as H110.

If those were effective powders for the 300 BLK, would Hodgdon list them in their reloading guide? Yeah probably, but they aren't there.

Getting back to the question that the OP had, yes, the 300 BLK with the right ammo and used at appropriate distances will work just fine. This Barnes ammo isn't cheap, but does work well:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/430384/barnes-vor-tx-ammunition-300-aac-blackout-110-grain-tipped-tac-tx-bullet-flat-base-lead-free-box-of-20

The description lists muzzle velocity as 2350 fps, but from my 10.5" AR pistol, it chrono's a still respectable 2188 fps. I also handload that bullet and can duplicate that velocity with 18.5 grains of H110.

The bullet is specifically designed for the slower velocities of the 300 BLK. I double lunged an 8 pt buck at 125 yards and he ran about 30 yards and piled up. The bullet exit hole was about 3/4" and looked like it had been made with a cookie cutter. He wouldn't have been any deader if I'd used my 7mmRM.

 

[Jlr2267]

you do realize theres a hell of a lot more to loading cartridges than case capacity, right?.. you do realize the blackout can safely be loaded about 10,000 PSI higher than 7.62x39, right?.. and you do understand enough of basic physics to understand what drives a bullet is the pressure generated on the base of the bullet.. and you do also know you can calculate that amount of thrust by finding the area of the base of the bullet and multiplying that by the pressure

quite simply loaded to higher pressures the .300 blackout has a power curve that starts out high and drops due to case volume whereas the 7.62x39 has a lower, but longer pressure curve in a 16 inch barrel, net result when both cartridges are loaded to their max pressure yields about the same result out of a 16 inch barrel

next you'll be telling me a 45acp is sooooo much more powerful than a 9mm because like omg.. its so huge right?.. geeze

and no, it doesnt have to be loaded like a magnum pistol round, its not a magnum pistol round, it operates at much higher velocities than magnum pistols in much longer barrel lengths, pistol powders are fine for SBR and subsonic loads but they are by no means optimal in a longer barrel rifle

seriously, how many magnum pistols do you know operating at 62,000 PSI in a 16 inch barrel?

how about a recipe? bullet, powder, charge and OAL?

 

[climbnjump]

youd know a 110 grain 300 blackout has MORE usable case capacity than a .223

Um, no. You can actually make 300 BLK cases by CUTTING OFF .223 cases and resizing.

Making a container shorter isn't going to increase its capacity unless you are increasing the diameter - which isn't happening here.

 

[The Big D]

try it, it worked very well for me in handloads for 5.56, 7.62x39, and .308 so im sure itll work just as well for 300 blackout as well

Hmm, I've never tried this personally mind you but QuickLoad seems to agree that 3031 is way too slow to be useful in 300 BLK. With a 125gr Hornady SST and the OAL set to 2.1" (Hornady's recommendation for that bullet in 300BLK) and a full case of 3031 you only make 17K PSI and 1550 ft/s. That doesn't seem functional, frankly.

The top powders it recommends for that load in terms of speed are Win296, LilGun, and H110 - very much in line with what others have been suggesting. H110 will drive that same bullet at 2350 ft/s at 54K PSI.