300 gr 45 acp

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iron horse

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Hello Everyone,

I like heavy and slow bullets for self defense. Trying to decide if I am going to go from the 45 acp to the 50 gi caliber with a Speer 325 grain 50 gi as tested by Taffin http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/t...&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

Does anyone know of a source for a 300 grain, rebated, boattail base bullets that will fit in 45 acp brass? Preferably a JHP or a copper HP.

A major argument against such a heavy 45 acp round was that it would bulge the casing. However, in the April 2006 issue of Handloader Magazine, the article, "Super Heavy Bullets in the .45 Auto" by Bob Campbell, that issue was easily resolved. He resolved it by using a 300 gr. rebated, boattail base bullet. This bullet was made by Northwest Custom Projectiles. However, that company appears to be out of business.

Thanks for any assistance.:)
 
Im not sure what the benefit would be. 230 gr is already in the 800 fps range. At the velocity I would imagine you'll run into expansion and penetration issues. If it was a good idea, some one would be producing the ammo.
 
The 230 grain has not been THE 45 ACP round for so many years without a good reason
 
That heavy of a bullet in .45acp probably isn't going to expand very well. Might as well not pay for expensive JHP bullets if you're dead set on that weight. For me personally, 200gr is where it's at. That's the bullet weight JMB himself designed the 1911 around, 230gr only became the "standard" due to government/military request. In my testing 200gr JHP's (Hornady XTP's) give me the best combination of accuracy, very manageable recoil, and good expansion. So I tend to think JMB knew what he was doing.
 
What kind of gun are you going to shoot them in? If you have a 45 ACP revolver, you can seat the bullet long and it won't be a problem. There's 45 Auto Rim data for heavier loads, and "sub magnum" loads as well, as long as you seat them long to keep the pressure down. If you can't seat it long, you really don't have much powder space in the 45 ACP case with that heavy of a bullet.

I wonder if you could swage the base of the bullet somehow. Perhaps pushing it backwards and only partially through a .440 to .445 bullet sizer. Not sure what that would do to accuracy.
 
Thanks for everyones comments.

Some of your comments are very common responses. Thats why in part, Robert (Bob) Campbell, prolific gun writer, did the testing for the article. He wanted to find out for himself. He found to his suprise that the 300 gr. 45acp fired from a 1911 type pistol, fed and cycled correctly, was very accurate and provided deep penetration.

See the following language from the article as provided by another source, "The .45 ACP performs best with 230-grain jacketed and lead bullets, whether they are hollowpoint, roundnose or fmj nose. Go heavier than 230 grains and you take a risk the longer bullet will bulge the case. This has been the rule until quite recently."

"I have performed several experiments with 300-grain, .45-caliber bullets in the autoloader. That’s right - big, fat, ugly 300-grain bullets in the .45 ACP! My mind has been changed concerning heavy bullets in the .45 and my perception enlarged. The results have been stunning."

"The Northwest Custom bullet will fit in the .45 ACP case, due to the heavy weight centered in the boat-tail. Otherwise, this program would have been similar to attempting to load a 200-grain cast bullet in the 9mm Luger case. The Northwest bullet has a solid driving band that gives plenty of contact with the bore. The weight of the bullet is in the case but not against the case walls. Normal seating length is possible. A few dummy rounds were loaded without powder, and I was impressed by the ease of loading and perfect feeding through the action."

"Then, the actual loading began. The pistol used most is my favorite High Standard .45."

"I was able to reach 770 fps with 5.8 grains of Unique and no adverse pressure signs. Again, this is new territory and caution is demanded! But my loads seemed mild enough. Accuracy was excellent, with several 1.5-inch, 25-yard groups from a benchrest."

"Hunting loads are usually developed for increased penetration; therefore, a penetration test was in order. I use wet newsprint for these tests. It is cheap, abundant and useful for comparing one load to the other. It does not mock flesh and bone, but neither does the gelatin some put so much faith in. I collected a number of favorite .45 ACP loads, mostly cast bullet loads, and began the test. Per my calculations, penetration in gelatin would have been perhaps 20 percent greater."

"The 300-grain bullet simply left the others behind in penetration. Frankly, I was surprised. Typical 230-grain hardball has an excellent reputation for penetration, but there are the facts."


"Penetration Tests

200 SWC 1,150 14”
230 FMJ 860 18”
230 Golddot 860 12” .72 exp
250 XTP 890 16” .5 exp
250 Meister cast 780 17”
300 NWCP 770 26” " (Northwest Custom Projectiles Bullet)

If anyone has any source of a 300 gr. rebated boat tail base bullet that will fit in a 45 acp casing and or experience with this setup, let me know. Thanks again.
 
I'd go right to the source- he gives it in the article.



Northwest Custom Projectile
P.O. Box 0127
Butte, MT 59703 map
Phone: (406) 723-8683
Website: www.customprojectile.com
Email: [email protected]

If they are out of business, that might tell you something.

I did see the RBT bullets in 45, and it had me wondering, for sure.

If it doesn't pan out, I'm sure that corbin would make dies for you- as the bullet mentioned and described in the article is one of the designs that corbin points to as an innovative example of their handiwork ( boat tailed pistol bullets- not this one in particular).
 
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out of the 287 Handloader Magazines ever printed I'm missing 51 and that's one of them , (I'm missing all of 2006) are you sure they were boat-tail base ? BB on cast bullets stands for "bevel base", I have never heard of a boat-tail 45ACP. Handloader #37 has a 305gr load using Lyman mold #457169HB , Speer makes a 260gr JHP and the load data is on Wolf's web sight loaddata.com but I can't find anything for a boat-tail 300gr 45ACP , do a inter-web search for 300gr 45ACP I found a few other forms where others have done it ,
 
Thanks everyone for additional info.

I have searched for updated info about Northwest Custom Projectiles. The website no longer works. The owner is Robert R. Sauter a.k.a. "Bullet Bob".

So far, I can not find contact info for the article author, Robert (Bob) Campbell.

Although, I found quoted portions of the article in other forums, this is all I could find about the actual magazine issue with the article http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL 240 Partial (LO) 2.pdf The article title is actually, "Super Heavy Bullets in the .45 Auto" on page 72.

I have used many of the major calibers and the latest greatest rounds in many pistol types/brands. Yet, after seeing how determined a bad guy can be, I know what I really want in a pistol round.

What I am trying to achieve is a 300 gr. HP 45 acp round at approximately 650 to 700 fps or as close to that as possible. I would like a copper HP for a better chance of expanding, but a 300 gr. copper hp bullet is longer than a 300 gr. jhp bullet and may not allow enough powder to cycle correctly and or may be too close to the powder and greatly increase pressure. I just don't know. Thats why I need the expertise of this site's members.

I will be using a Colt 1991 A1 for testing. Although the cheaper Colt, it is the only 1911 type pistol that I have used, that has fed everything and I mean everything right out of the box. Its as reliable as my Ruger revolvers. Yet, I also plan to use the new round in a Sig Sauer P 227 Carry.

I want to send sledge hammers down range with the softest recoil possible for faster follow up shots.:D

Any further help is appreciated.
 
You might look at 300gr .451 diameter projectiles that used with a sabot in 50cal muzzleloaders. I use 285gr boattails from Barnes (in my muzzleloader).

Here are some from prbullet.com - not a great website, you might do best to call.

ul45.jpg

ex-tc.jpg

YMMV
 
Please take this as information only and not as a detriment to what your looking into.

For one you are going to need to beef up the springs and buffer in your pistol. Otherwise in short order your going to beat it to pieces. They simply weren't designed for a regular diet of extra heavy bullets and the loads they take to get them going. Look into some of the 250'ish grain pin shooting pistols and how they are set up. That will at least give you some info on how you might need to adjust your own pistol.

As an alternative to the particular bullet your trying to find, you might also consider casting your own. There are several mold makers which for around $150 will custom cut you up to a 4 cavity mold to your requirements possibly even with a hollow point. This said however, a good WFN designed solid will most effectively do some damage, and the up side of this is your not giving up as much space in the case as you would with the same or similar designed HP.

While it isn't actually designed to be used as a 45 ACP bullet I have shot some weighing in the 260'ish grain range out of my stock Colt 1911 Govt. and they shot great and hit very hard. I used the MP 452-640 HP mold to pour these up with. After pouring up a decent pile of them I couldn't help myself and had to at least try them out in my ACP. Here is a link to a write up on the first comparrison I tried them out in.
Cast vs Jacketed

I have since found that these do indeed penetrate deeper and expand reliably with the proper alloy. The loads also, as mentioned above, do give the springs and frame a work out. As such I don't shoot them with any regularity maybe 10 or so at a time here and there. I do however have a magazine loaded up with them which I carry with us when we hit the road. Like you I figure that hitting something hard with a good accurate shot should take care of the matter at hand. Even if these don't expand they are still roughly a half inch to start with and if the nose plugs they will still end up being a very good WFN which will surely change the thinking and functioning processes of any two legged critter.
 
Perhaps it would be best to strictly ask questions like this as an academic exercise or simple request for information, rather than tying the question to a matter of practical self defense.

It's kind of fun to see the various trivial ends folks have taken such experiments to: super-light and fast saboted rounds; extra-heavy rebated-base thumpers, and everything in between.

It seems that, almost regardless which cartridge is under study and which way the envelope is being streeeeeetched, the final conclusion is always eventually along the lines of, "Well, that was fun...so anyway, what's on TV?" :) In other words, much ado about nothing and no substantive final product anyone adopts for practical uses.

Now, self defense is a very important need and requires from each of us the most dedicated study and preparation. It is not a field bounded by trivialities of ammo or weapons -- what cool gun or exotic ammunition we throw our money at makes no difference at all. In fact, cool guns and exotic ammunition can be quite a distraction from anything of even remotest importance.

What is important is investment in YOU, development of YOU -- the real weapon. Have you pursued training in situational awareness, ADEE, self-defense tactics and law? Have you developed realistic practice routines, off the "square range," that build your gun handling and gun-FIGHTING skills to the point that you might be of more help than harm in a violent encounter? Have you put enough rounds downrange in realistic training and in practice that you don't have to think about the mechanics of shooting under pressure?

If so, you start to come to the realization that you aren't going to rely on "that one accurate shot" that lays your adversary low. Not going to search for specialty bullets that can penetrate him lengthwise from head to toe. Don't want proprietary .50GI cartridges you can't afford to send downrange by the tens of thousands in practice. Those are irrelevancies and distractions from the task you're setting out to accomplish. (I.e.: surviving a violent encounter.)

All that to say, naaah, I don't know of any place to get such things. And if you're really serious about self defense, you won't waste your time on them either. :)
 
iron horse said:
Thanks everyone for additional info.

I have searched for updated info about Northwest Custom Projectiles. The website no longer works. The owner is Robert R. Sauter a.k.a. "Bullet Bob".

So far, I can not find contact info for the article author, Robert (Bob) Campbell.
Click to expand...
The fact that a website no longer works does not mean that its content is forever lost...

Alright. I'm only going to do this once, so pay attention.

Archived Web pages indicate that customprojectile.com was the internet presence for Northwest Custom Projectiles. And their archived 'About Us' page confirms that the business was operated in Butte, Montana by Bob Sauter, AKA: Bullet Bob (see credentials on the bottom of the page).

Further, the Made in Montana website linked from the 'Business' tab on the State of Montana website confirms that Northwest Custom Projectile was founded by Robert R. Sauter (AKA: Bullet Bob) of Butte, Montana.

Robert R. Sauter of Butte, Montana has an active FFL and his contact information is a matter of public record. That contact information can be found on the BATFE website here.

So, if you are so inclined, you now have a way to contact Bullet Bob of customprojectile.com to talk to him about the bullets that were referenced in the article you read.

You're welcome.

And... ain't the interwebz great?
 
Thanks for taking the time to provide detailed comments.

Thanks for providing detailed research.

Thanks for making the effort to find "Bullet Bob".

Still trying to get the specs for the 300 grain bullet. Respecting peoples privacy, I will not go into detail, but will say that, today, I talked to someone that knew the operations of Northwest Custom Projectiles very well. According to this source, it shutdown for reasons other than a lack of demand.

So far, all phone numbers for "Bullet Bob" Sauters do not work.

Buchanan Ammunition, from Va. and maybe recently, MT. , started to sell 300 grain 45 acp ammunition with Custom Projectiles bullets.

See the following old advertisement language I found on officer.com,

"BUCHANAN AMMUNITION SETS NEW INDUSTRY STANDARD FOR THE 45 ACP The combined effort's of Buchanan Ammunition and NwCP have set a new world industry standard for the full size government 1911 with a 5" barrel and a 300 grain bullet. A +P load using a non-canister powder has produced a stunning velocity of 820 fps at 19,600 psi..."

Robert (Bob) Campbell already proved that it can feed and cycle correctly, as well as it penetrates better than all others at over 800 fps. My real concern was the psi. Now we know that the psi is not outrageous even at +P levels.

That tells me that the round could also be at a lower charge, lower fps and lower psi....if I can get it, I'm getting it.:D

I will continue to try to contact Robert Sauters or Buchanan Ammunition to get a sample and or specs.

If anyone beats me to it, save me some ammo:D
 
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Owner of Buchanan Ammunition was posting on another forum in a thread concerning 45 cal. man stoppers in 2008. See his posting in part,

"Hello,
My name is John Buchanan of Buchanan Ammunition.....NwCP also makes the Wood Shed bullet that has a rebated boat tail and truncated nose. It comes in 260gr and 300gr and will function in the auto loader. With a heavy spring kit, these heavy rebated bullets have truly amazing penetration. At 900fps (out of the Colt) it is not uncommon to see 10 feet of penetration in the water trough. Of course at these low velocities the Wood Shed is not an expanding bullet.
Thanks,
John Buchanan"

Looks like I need to be taken to the Wood Shed.:D
 
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That sounds like a neat curiosity. What's 10' of penetration with a non-expanding bullet good for? :)

I'll admit it sounds great for hunting Cape Buffalo with your 1911, unless the claims are somewhat exaggerated.
 
Got it. Great reading. Thanks StrawHat.;)

So far, unable to contact Robert Sauter.

Today, I did speak with John Buchanan of Buchanan Ammunition. He is a very nice guy. They no longer make ammunition, due to a beneficial business arrangement and not for negative reasons.

He said the 300gr. 45 acp round worked very well with no problems at all. Yet, since they stopped all ammunition production, no more 300gr 45 acp rounds produced. However, he is going to work with me to get the ammunition and specs.:evil:

I will update as I find out more info. Hope everyone does the same. Thanks again.
 
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While I've never been a fan of "Extra" Heavy for caliber bullets, I know many are and wish you good luck with your endeavor.
 
Just a side note. Guncrafters Industries, the home of the 50gi round, quality 1911 type pistols and the glock conversion kits, just informed me of a round they sell that I did not know of.

As you all know, the 50gi is a 45 acp on steriods. It flys at lower psi & fps like the 45 acp with felt recoil like a 45 acp +p or less depending on fps, but with a wider, larger, heavier bullet. The OAL is almost identical to the 45 acp (the 50gi is actually a tad shorter than the 45 acp). Their copper HP expand larger than any others.

Anyway, I just found out that they sell a 50gi 350gr JFP at 650fps:what:

Since Guncrafters also sells the 50gi dies and bullets for reloading and if I can get the 300gr 45 acp bullets and or specs from Buchanan, I should be able to have cheaper practice ammo for both.

For me, that means my next pistol will be a Glock 21 with a 50gi conversion kit (complete slide/barrel assembly) with a 1911 ergo treatment from Rocky Mountain Weaponary (makes the Glock look and feel great). This way I can fire a 300gr 45 acp round or a 350gr 50gi out of the same pistol:cool:
 
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