300 Winchester Magnum reloading question

[Daniel Boone]

So my dad reloaded 5 boxes of .300 Winchester Magnum - 180 gr rounds for me.

My primary hunting rifle is a Browning Pump Rifle - looks like a BAR - but it is pump action.

Shells won't fit in the rifle.

The problem I believe is that the shoulder has moved forward.

I tried to find small base die's for .300 Winchester Magnum - thinking that was the problem - only to find out that they do not make any small base dies for the .300 Winchester Magnum.

So my question is - if the shoulder is being pulled forward by the die when he is reloading the shells for me - how can I adjust the die to push the shoulder back to where it belongs.

On the other hand - if the shell isn't fitting because the shoulder was moved back too far - how can I move it forward.

I have measured everything and can't find anything wrong with them - but they just don't fit.

When I try to jack them hard into the action - they get stuck

Any help will be appreciated.

ps. - I bought a box of reloads at a gun shop a couple of years ago and they did the same thing. So I do not believe that it is just a one time deal with this rifle or that it happened because my dad didn't know what he was doing.

He has reloaded several thousand 30-06, .270 Winchester and 35 Remington and 30-30 Winchester rounds for me and I have never had this problem before.

 

[MEHavey]

Since it's a belted case, no small-base option exists.

(1) Even so, any normal FL-sizing die should reduce the shoulder to SAAMI (shoulder) headspace minimums just fine. Have you pulled the bullet from a non-fitting cartridge and resized the (then-empty) case to check this baseline as a starting point?

(2) Has the case stretched from previous reloading past max (and the neck is binding when chambered)? A simple check w/ a caliper will shown that.

(3) One problem might have been the bullet was seated & over-crimped in a one operation. Doing so will crush the case slightly and expand its diameter right at the shoulder itself to the point it won't fit the chamber. Then the only solution is to pull the bullets, resize, and reload w/o the crimp in the seating step -- and crimp in the next step w/ the seating screw out a couple of turns.

(4) The other problem common with belted cases might be the case web ahead of the belt itself is blown out from excess pressures in it's previous life. (Test #1 will determine that.) If so, the cases cannot be salvaged and you have to start over.

 

[cheygriz]

Get a Forster case guage and check them. You may need to buy Dad a new full length resizing die. (Hint: get a Redding )

If they pass a guage check, your chamber may be too tight. If so, a decent gunsmith can "polish" it out a wee bit with a finishing reamer.

 

[Grumulkin]

If your dad crimped the bullets in place, that's probably the problem. You probably don't need to crimp and if you do, you should use a Lee Factory Crimp die. If it's a problem with the die, you could send some once fired factory ammo brass to one of the die manufactures and have a custom die made.

As for the case ahead of the belt being blown out by excess pressure; unlikely in the first place and there is a die that will fix that.

 

[Skyshot]

Tell us what kind of die's you are using. Do you have any calipers to take case deminsions with? I Agree with the previous post and also your necks maybe to long. I always check my cases unloaded and see if they will chamber OK. You really need to check the deminsions and that should point you to your problem.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Actually the problem is even simpler....

If the ammo was originally fired in a rifle other than yours, the rifle it was fired in has a larger chamber than yours and unless the brass is trimmed and full-length sized to factory dimensions, it won't chamber properly in your likely "tight" chamber.

I've seen it many, many times through the years.

Heck, my reloads using once fired Hornady brass/ammo that were fired in my Marlin .338MX wouldn't chamber after being reloaded and crimped till I pulled the bullets and trimmed the cases to .015" SHORTER than SAAMI minimum specs. The factory brass/ammo only chamber (but snugly) because of the substantial crimp. My chamber is acutally a tad shorter than proper specs........

The best solution it to keep your brass seperate for all other brass of the same chambering. And load accordingly........ And trim before the first reloading to 0.010" under max oal as published in the manuals. Most of the once fired brass I pick up from my public range is over SAAMI max spec. after being fired the first time.

 

[28lx]

Sometimes when you full length size if the die isnt screwed down far enough the brass wont fit the chamber. I would try sizeing the brass and trying to chamber it without a bullet. If the bolt doesnt close keep turning the die in 1/8 turn at a time until it chambers. I bet this will solve your problem.

 

[MEHavey]

As for the case ahead of the belt being blown out by excess pressure; unlikely in the first place and there is a die that will fix that.

Blown-out case/web just ahead of the belt is not all that uncommon with over-pressured belted magnums which have been reloaded a few times. Be sure that isn't the problem before you invest a lot of time.



See post #18 below and its follow-on discussion:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=428429

 

[Daniel Boone]

Ok, just like trying to repair a car over the internet - it would be hard for you to understand without the whole story.

I bought this rifle new about 11 or 12 years ago when Browning decided not to make it anymore.
Since I live in Central Pennsylvania - Grice Gun Shop was the dealer.

Since I was already at Grice Gun Shop - I bought a set of RCBS Full Length dies, a shell holder, a couple of boxes of Sierra Game King Bullets - 180 gr and a box of CCI Large Rifle Magnum primers.

I already had 10 lbs of Imr 4350 powder at home.

We were using a Lee reloading press, we had a RCBS - but dad got into a fight with the uncle and walked away from everything.
I would have to say that all of the dies - other then the dies that dad had when he bought this press off my dead uncle is RCBS - because that is all I have ever bought. Kind of a deal where you reload and I will buy you anything you want or need.

The brass was mostly Federal with a box or two of Remington - once fired - all out of my rifle. The shells I bought off a gun shop that were reloads were Winchester Super X - real old yellow box. The gunsmith said people buys the boxes because they are collectible.
Anyways - all of the factory loads feeds, shoots, ejects perfect.

When I get into the reloads - they drop down into the chamber like it was butter - all but the last couple of thousandths - and then they refuse to go the rest of the way.

We have 3 or 4 sets of inside, outside, depth mic's - Mitutoyo, Starrett, Brown and Sharpe. We have blade mic's, disc mic's, any kind of measuring instrument you want.

I have mic'd the length, I have mic'd the neck, I have mic'd the base, I have mic'd the belt. I can't find anything wrong with them.

Either the extractor grove or the belt was about .0015 larger then the new factory rounds, so I even chucked up a round and I machined .002 off the belt and they still refused to feed.

I would say that they have a heavy crimp - but I would believe that the bullets were seated with one operation and then they were all ran back though a second time when the dies were adjusted for the crimp operation and not all done at once.

One of the bullets that I pulled was a 180 gr PSPBT and had no cannelure.
So maybe your theory is correct when you say that the crimp is what is making a bulge and preventing the round to chamber..

So I got out a mic here and I measured a Federal factor load and the diameter of the neck at the crimp is .3385
The crimp on the reload is .336

Factory specifications says it can be a Neck diameter - .339 in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_Winchester_Magnum

I have a RCBS reloading manual around here some place - but like everything else - when you want it - you can't find it.
Tomorrow I will be tripping over it.

 

[MEHavey]

So I got out a mic here and I measured a Federal factor load and the diameter of the neck at the crimp is .3385. The crimp on the reload is .336

The problem with the simultaneous seat/crimp operation is that it can shove back/expand the shoulder diameter ever-so-slightly ... that last coupla thousandths to final chambering as you note.

Check the diameter of a (non-fitting) case where the shoulder starts to see if it's overspec. (i.e., greater than 0.489")



Check also by using magic marker to blacken the transition from case wall to case shoulder.
See if trying to force it to chamber rubs that mark off at the shoulder edge.

 

[Skyshot]

you could also resize the case and see if it will chamber with no bullet or powder in it, if it doesn't then you have a resizing problem, I would'nt think it would be head separation as if you say they where once fired cases. Make sure that your die and shell holder are making good contact. And make sure your have the proper shell holder for that case. As before start with a full sized empty case and work forward.

 

[Offfhand]

Quoted from post above:

"Since it's a belted case, no small-base option exists."

Indeed there is, check your facts next time.

 

[MEHavey]

Wouldn't it simply be nicer (and a lot more constructve) to say "small base option to be found here?"

And then supplied the cite?
http://www.gandermountain.com/modpe...e_Die_Set_300_Win_Mag&aID=510P1D&merchID=4006


The OP might also magic mark the last inch of the case above the belt to see if that is the binding point before investing.
.
.

 

[Innovative]

Belted Magnum Calibers are different ...

Daniel ........

Knowing the exact size of your handloads is meaningless unless you ALSO know the exact size of YOUR particular chamber. There are over 4,500 shooters now using the Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die and the Digital Headspace Gauge to solve the exact problem you described.

These patented tools work on many different calibers, without buying special attachments. Be sure to headspace ALL handloads on the case shoulder - always. You can read more about this on my website.

 

[Grumulkin]

So, I have a 458 Lott. How do I "always" headspace said handloads on the shoulder?

 

[Innovative]

Grumulkin ........

Obviously there is no shoulder on the .458 Win. Mag. (or the .458 Lott). However, the .458 has very thin brass at the neck, and you'll do well to use the Lee FC Collet Die for crimping. It provides ONLY inward pressure, and it avoids a slight upper case bulge that is common when crimping .458 Win. Mag cases.

That's a whole different ball game.

 

[Sunray]

Ask your da if he full length resized the cases. Pump actions, lever actions and semi-autos require FL resizing every time. A regular FL die will be fine.
FL resizing is required for new brass and especially brass that has been fired out of another rifle. Doesn't matter if the case is belted or not.

 

[Grumulkin]

Grumulkin ........

Obviously there is no shoulder on the .458 Win. Mag. (or the .458 Lott). However, the .458 has very thin brass at the neck, and you'll do well to use the Lee FC Collet Die for crimping. It provides ONLY inward pressure, and it avoids a slight upper case bulge that is common when crimping .458 Win. Mag cases.

That's a whole different ball game.

Right. The belt on the 458 Lott, 458 Win. Mag. and even very tapered cases like the 300 & 375 H&H Mags. serves for headspaceing just like a rim does on a rimmed case. Though it will probably prolong case life, it is not essential to headspace bottlenecked cases on the shoulder and I've found headspaceing on the shoulder doesn't necessarily improve accuracy.

As for crimping my 458 Lott cartridges, I've been able to crimp adequately with a regular Hornady die without collapsing or bulging the case but had to go with the Lee Factory Crimp die for my 378 Weatherby Mag. loads.

 

[Daniel Boone]

I tried the black marker trick on both the bullet and the neck and couldn't find anything wrong with either.

The cases were all once fired and were only fired out of my rifle,

The dies are RCBS full length resizing die's and were brand new.
The first set was also brand new and I even picked up a set of used RCBS dies and they all did the same thing.

There is no traditional heavy crimp - it just looks like a regular old factory load.

The only place where I could see any difference between a factory load and the reload was in the extractor grove..

As far as checking my facts - I was at Grice Gun Shop Clearfield PA and also Mahoning Valley Milling - Punxsutawney PA and both places said that they were not in their catalog and that they did not exist.
You can't shoot the messenger - when someone opens up the catalog and says - they don't have it and they can't get it.

With the three sets of dies that I bought, we tried everything from just necking a shell down and trying it in the chamber to full length where we put the ram - shell holder right up against the die.

Like I said before - I have the same books you do and I have the same spec's for the shells diameters as you do and I have good measuring tools and I can't find anything wrong with them.

If I would have taken a couple of shells and put them on the optical comparator when I went to the Vo Tech - maybe I could have measured the shoulder angle and the length - since it had a 2 axis display. But since the Columbine episode - just bringing guns or ammo on school grounds is a felony in Pennsylvania. So I didn't dare risk it.

I have about 10 boxes of factory loads and another 10 boxes of reloads - so it isn't as if I am in desperate need of ammo today. But I would like to get this problem solved.
I have a inertia hammer puller and I can easily pull all the bullets - but I need to know what the problem is - before I just start throwing stuff at it - trying to solve the problem.

 

[MEHavey]

As you note, the cases were once-fired in your own rifle, so the extractor groove "shouldn't" be the problem (in theory). Nor should the case walls be blown out past your own chamber wall dimensions, thereby bringing a small base die (from whatever source) into play. It sure does sound like the rifle might have an absolutely minimum headspace dimension (a GO* Gauge might be useful to ensure it isn't actually under SAAMI spec), and/or the dies aren't bumping the shoulder back to the factory's min headspace dimensions.

One last option: See if you can get hold of a Hornady headspace gauge set and compare the headspace measure of a factory cartridge to one that has been cam-overed/FL-resized in your RCBS die.


*(Might either of your gun supply stores have a gunsmith w/ that GO Guage?)

 

[Daniel Boone]

A previous experiment - I put some black marker on the bullet to see if it was engaging the rifling of the barrel - and it was not.

I put some black on the neck of the case to see if it was rubbing and it was not.

So after I made my post - I got out a bunch of reloads and found some that were especially tight - and I put some black marker 1 inch above the belt and I chambered them and when I pumped them out - they both had a scratch in one place - the one was about 1/2 to 5/8 inch long and the other was 5/8 - 11/16ths long in the same exact place.

So excuse my picture - but the only digital camera I have is a cheap VEO web cam and it isn't really the best in the world. But I saved the picture and downloaded it and uploaded it to a photobucket account and here is what I see.

 

[Daniel Boone]

I took the rifle back once and they had a go / no go head-space gauge and it checked out ok. I was told that there was no real way to measure head-space and the only thing the gauge tells us is that either the chamber is to specifications or it isn't.

I do not believe that there is any adjustment to the barrel of a Browning Pump Rifle to change head-space.

They put the first one in and it closed.
They put the second on in and it did not.

The gunsmith went on to say that most times when you have a head-space issue it is because the chamber has suffered throat erosion from shooting too hot a load..
Since this rifle has not had 4 boxes of shells - and all those shells were factory loads and none of the shells were anything more then the regular old cheap Federals or Remington's - I am sure that the barrel is not shot out or that it has suffered any from throat erosion.

The difficult part of trying to polish the chamber is the fact that it is a pump rifle and it is not designed to be taken apart. They recommend that you send it back to the factory if you have a problem.
The first time the shells got stuck in the chamber - I was tugging on the forearm and it cracked and Browning exchanged both the stock and the forearm at that time - free of charge. It just cost me the cost of shipping.

I am sure that when they disassembled my rifle that they looked at it to make sure that there was no future issues - because I placed a note in the box with the rifle explaining how the forearm cracked and I offered to pay for the replacement.

Even the reloads drops right down into the chamber - makes a noise like dropping something into a sewer pipe when it drops down into the chamber and there is no resistance. If I push on it with my finger - it will chamber the whole way - but it gets stuck and then the bolt doesn't want to close and it doesn't want to open.

It doesn't do that with the factory loads.
I'm trying not to get mad here - because my dad did me a favor - trying to reload these shells for me and he didn't do anything wrong and he is a machinist - just like I am, only he had 25 years of experience before he retired - so he also knows how to follow directions and how to measure and how to fit up stuff to get it to work and we are perplexed because this has been a issue since the rifle was new and there is no way to just stick a piece of scotch brite on the end of a rod and polish the bore with a drill or anything - because this rifle has things on it that makes it so you don't take it apart.

There is little felt wipers on the rails that wipes the dirt, lint, etc off the rails before they enter the rifle. The clip is encased inside of a trap door and the bolt practically seals against the ejection port. This isn't a bolt action rifle where all you have to do is pull the bolt out and you can look down the bore or modify the chamber or polish it.
Anything that is done to this rifle - has to be done by a gunsmith or back at the factory.
This is what I was told - both by the gunsmith at Grice Gun Shop and also by Browning.

The worst part is - they don't make the rifle anymore and there is no spare parts for it and if you damage it - it's yours and you are stuck with it.
There is no parts to replace the felt wipers and stuff in the Brownells catalog either....

 

[murf]

suggest you compare a factory round to one of your reloads. measure case diameter top to bottom paying special attention to the body-shoulder junction. the sizing die may be oversizing and bulging the case just below the shoulder. fwiw

murf

 

[MEHavey]

I realize this is starting to sound like Ground Hog Day mad but you may have narrowed the problem:

They put the first one in and it closed.
They put the second on in and it did not.

You have an in-spec chamber. The GO Gauge fit, and the NO GO didn't.

The gunsmith went on to say that most times when you have a head-space issue it is because the chamber has suffered throat erosion from shooting too hot a load..

Throat erosion has nothing to do w/ headspace. Only extreme high pressure/proof-loads might set back the lugs and affect that chamber dimension, ...and you've already established that the rifle is effectively new & in-spec.

Even the reloads drops right down into the chamber - makes a noise like dropping something into a sewer pipe when it drops down into the chamber and there is no resistance. If I push on it with my finger - it will chamber the whole way

That tells me the cartridge is chambering normally, and points to a bolt-assembly (extractor?) interference. Is there any way you can you disassmble the bolt, pull the extractor off, and the bolt will close normally?

See
http://nramuseum.com/media/364154/Feb 98.pdf
http://stevespages.com/pdf/browning_bpr.pdf

 

[Grumulkin]

If you have ANY crimp on the bullet, it can deform the case enough to keep the cartridge from chambering. That happened to me the first time I tried loading for a semiautomatic 308 Winchester. The cartridges looked fine but wouldn't chamber. If you haven't already done so, load a cartridge or two with no crimp and see how they chamber.