300 yard indoor rifle range?

[patmccoy]

Target carriers and changing can be a thing of the past with the new systems. CMP's new range at Talledega is all electronic (http://thecmp.org/competitions/talladega-marksmanship-park/cmp-target-systems/).

Perhaps find an area with new commercial construction, and put the 4' t0 6" diameter concrete pipe underground during the development phase?

 

[CapnMac]

Maybe on that upper mezzanine above the shooting lanes.

Well, there's the rub. For warehousing, you just need a forklift-suitable ramp. (You can use a "transfer" ramp, where the ground level forklift delivers to the mezzanine, and a mezzanine forklift then distributes to racks.) For people, you have to have an elevator to meet ADA. Two-stop 3000# capacity elevator runs about $95K before installation, which can put a big budget hole in one's interior finish budget. Does not mean it can't be done, it just inflates the budget a bit.

Below entry grade ranges have the same problem, you have to get down to them. Which is stairs and an elevator. You get into infrastructure issues in that you are putting in stuff that's below the elevation of underground utilities. Which is a rather important detail with sewer systems. Waterproofing becomes middling important, too. Also frees the design up a bit, too. As the cost for three levels is not that much more than just having two. SO, club/restaurant/open hall on 3rd, then retail on 2nd, with range on 1st would make sense.

But, full ground contact does gain some really good benefits. Like staying about 60-65º the entire year around (at least south of about 40-42ºN.

 

[CapnMac]

A note on culverts.
Public use forces some considerations upon the design.

In private use, some of those "go away."

Like a person could bury 42"-48" ID ABS culvert (about 1/4 the cost of similar HDPE). with about 2 foot of soil cover on their own land and and never bother the neighbors much with range noise. At the butt end you'd want some sort of trap box, but, technically, you could just use undisturbed soil as a backstop, same as a berm or hill. You'd want a "well house" on top to ventilate the thing. 48" culvert is only about 4000c.f., somewhere around a 250cfm ventilator for four airchanges/hour. Shooting end would want a CMU or poured concrete box belowgrade. If you went with metal decking and a concrete "lid" youed have a better than passing storm shelter. But a "shed" on top and you'd have a reloading hoous, too []

Note that the 2 feet of ground cover also gets you ground-moderated temperatures, too.

 

[George Dickel]

I don't know about local/state ordnances/codes on private ranges but under federal law commercial ranges can't just exhaust range air to the outside atmosphere. It has to be filtered to remove the lead dust and other pollutants and those filters are not cheap and require changing on a periodic basis. Additionally I would guess that those dirty filters are considered hazardous waste and require more expense to dispose of. There are a lot of environmental requirements in addition to safety that must be complied with that most people don't have any idea about and they all cost significant sums of money.

 

[milemaker13]

At this point i assume those costs can be handled... other commercial ranges need to meet the same requirements and they seem to be doing ok.

 

[George Dickel]

Yes, the costs are being met by existing ranges but there is a whole lot of difference between a typical 25 yard indoor range and a 300 yard long indoor range. If it was economically feasible there would be 300 yard ranges in existence.

 

[thumbody]

Dunan's Outdoor shop in Bay City MI has a 200 yd indoor range. It is an underground tube
http://www.duncansoutdoor.com/rifle-range/

 

[Jim Watson]

Near new Bullet and Barrel, Huntsville, Alabama, has three 100 yd tubes with electronic targets syncing to tablet or phone. Problem is, the tubes are only about 32" and at the height of the bench. Any oddball wanting to shoot standing or prone is just out of luck.
They are already trying to figure out how to line the concrete culvert with something to knock down the noise. It is now a muff and plug proposition.
They were also going to require lead sled type rests. Too many tube wall strikes.

Cullman Shooting Sports is new and has 8x110 yd conventional lanes. Also 10x27 yd. Were they planning for another try at metrication?

Sir Joseph Whitworth built a 500 yard enclosed range to work on his radical smallbore (.45 cal.) design. It burned down before he could get much use out of it. So he built another. The steel industry was prosperous in 1860. EPA and OSHA were not even thought of, either.

 

[MistWolf]

Weber County Shooting Complex in Utah has an indoor range that goes out to 300 yards. No tubes. The ceiling is a half open baffle. Golf carts are used to go down range to check and change targets. They have a website.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I think the logistics as you've envisioned it would rapidly become unbearable.

So let's think outside the box on this. Instead of enclosing an entire 1,000 foot range, why not just enclose the area where the shooters are at? It would be simple enough to build a structure at an outdoor range that's heated/cooled, protected from inclement weather, etc. while meeting all the government requirements for ventilation and whatnot. The building would simply be designed with shooting ports/windows with benches all along the wall(s) facing downrange.

All the comforts of being inside WITHOUT all the logistics of enclosing an entire range.

 

[milemaker13]

Trouble with that is being in suburbia.

 

[Jack B.]

The longest indoor range I've ever seen was at Shooters World in Tampa FL. Prices aren't that bad for what you get.

http://www.shootersworld.com/shooting-range/rifle-range.aspx

 

[milemaker13]

If i had some money man..... I'd rent the longest building in history man! Set up a bullet trap at one end; it'd be forty feet tall... drive my golf cart back and forth and have a good time.

 

[Jim Watson]

I'd just rent that long narrow building and hire a DREAMer to pull and mark targets like the traditional low tech Army range.

I have seen a range somewhat like RetiredUSNChief describes.
It is a ISU/ISSF 50 meter smallbore range. The firing line is completely enclosed. Just open the top or bottom half of a Dutch door to shoot standing, kneeling, or prone.

 

[George Dickel]

I think the logistics as you've envisioned it would rapidly become unbearable.

So let's think outside the box on this. Instead of enclosing an entire 1,000 foot range, why not just enclose the area where the shooters are at? It would be simple enough to build a structure at an outdoor range that's heated/cooled, protected from inclement weather, etc. while meeting all the government requirements for ventilation and whatnot. The building would simply be designed with shooting ports/windows with benches all along the wall(s) facing downrange.

All the comforts of being inside WITHOUT all the logistics of enclosing an entire range.

Two years ago I went to Germany with the wife to visit her family. My brother-in-law took me to a gun club shooting range that some friends of his are members. The range only went to 100 meters but it was outdoors except the room as you described was where the shooters shot from. There were 6 or 8 windows that the shooter wound shoot out of, either standing or prone. Like a dining table leaf there was a flat panel that could be put into place to allow prone shooting. The range itself was open but there were concrete arches like an inverted "U" placed at set distances down the range that prevented a shooter from shooting out of the range either vertically or horizontally. A cable system would run the targets out to the distance that lane was set up for. There were 25, 50 and 100 meter lanes.

Once while stationed in Germany I shot on a German Army firing range set up like the one I described above except the firing positions were outdoors. The arches used for this range were massive in height and width so as to prevent rounds from leaving the range. The back wall was a huge concrete wall with a dirt berm for bullet impact. A bullet could be fired out of the range if the shooter shot to his extreme left or right or vertically but that is what range NCO's were there for, to prevent an idiot from doing it. The way the gun club range was set up, you couldn't shoot out of the range. There were walls on the sides and a roof that went far enough out that it prevented someone from shooting out of the range. This type of range would have to be out in the country away from business/residential areas due to the noise from gunfire.

 

[Jim Watson]

They have been doing that a long time, in the tight little European countries. I recall the old Jac Weller articles about different armies in American Rifleman. He commented on the "concave" German ranges.

 

[EIB0879]

Two years ago I went to Germany with the wife to visit her family. My brother-in-law took me to a gun club shooting range that some friends of his are members. The range only went to 100 meters but it was outdoors except the room as you described was where the shooters shot from. There were 6 or 8 windows that the shooter wound shoot out of, either standing or prone. Like a dining table leaf there was a flat panel that could be put into place to allow prone shooting. The range itself was open but there were concrete arches like an inverted "U" placed at set distances down the range that prevented a shooter from shooting out of the range either vertically or horizontally. A cable system would run the targets out to the distance that lane was set up for. There were 25, 50 and 100 meter lanes.

Once while stationed in Germany I shot on a German Army firing range set up like the one I described above except the firing positions were outdoors. The arches used for this range were massive in height and width so as to prevent rounds from leaving the range. The back wall was a huge concrete wall with a dirt berm for bullet impact. A bullet could be fired out of the range if the shooter shot to his extreme left or right or vertically but that is what range NCO's were there for, to prevent an idiot from doing it. The way the gun club range was set up, you couldn't shoot out of the range. There were walls on the sides and a roof that went far enough out that it prevented someone from shooting out of the range. This type of range would have to be out in the country away from business/residential areas due to the noise from gunfire.

This is more the idea I had yesterday reading this thread. It seems like a very good compromise between an outdoor and indoor range.

 

[shoobe01]

There are quite a few indoor tube-style ranges at weapon/ammo manufacturers, proof houses, government inspectors, etc. They indeed segregate the sections to make it easier to handle. The tube and target end are not human-safe, so no need to ventilate, heat, cool, etc.
Most of them are pretty un-fun, and do things like have very small ports for firing. I wonder if you could use an air-door or something to keep the same principle with larger diameter tubes and fewer restrictions on firing position.
The shallow impact angle means most of these are "just concrete," which can keep costs down as well.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Another advantage of constructing a building to shoot out of lies with noise reduction. Properly constructed, it's possible to significantly reduce the noise level for the shooter and for other occupants of the building, simply because the muzzle of the rifle/pistol may be extended past the plane of the opening one is shooting through.

Clever construction techniques with noise baffles may further reduce the noise.

This may, in fact, be a good selling point to prospective members/users, especially those with larger calibers and magnums.

 

[Rock185]

I spoke with the owner of a LGS in California who mentioned they'd like to incorporate a range into their business. The gun shop only occupies a fraction of the large building they own in an industrial area. They approached the municipality about it, and the red tape, restrictions, building requirements, and the anti-gun attitude of elected officials make it extremely unlikely that a range would ever be approved. The owner of a LGS in small town Arizona spoke of similar difficulties in getting a range approved. One might be tempted to think there'd be less political resistance/red tape/restrictions,etc. on allowing a range in small town Arizona, apparently not so.......

 

[TheSquire]

I know of at least two ranges over here that utilise tunnels. One is a 100yrd range thats purpose built, the other is in an old railway tunnel.
The purpose built one is odd, strange noises from shooting down a 6ft pipe...

 

[Jim Watson]

One might be tempted to think there'd be less political resistance/red tape/restrictions,etc. on allowing a range in small town Arizona,

Or in small town Alabama. I have lived here since 1964 and have heard of multiple attempts to construct an indoor range, None were approved. The close in outdoor range was shared by the club and the police department which let it operate until real estate interests pushed us both out.
The year-old indoor range is outside city limits. Which did not keep the mayor from showing up at the grand opening and bragging about the jobs and business he "brought in."

 

[4v50 Gary]

Cheaper to lay 300 yard of pipe than to build an air filtration system.

 

[CapnMac]

Cheaper to lay 300 yard of pipe than to build an air filtration system.

All my research seems to indicate that, inside of incorporated city limits, you'll have to have ventilation using pipe or not.

All the culvert/pipe does is reduce the amount of air you have to filter (somewhere between 30-40%).

If a person is planning in an unincorporated area, different rules tend to apply, depending upon how urbanized the county is (and which State). As an example, in Tarrant County, outdoor ranges are severely limited by County Ordinance (actually easier to get approval withing Fort Worth City Limits). Just a few miles away, in Johnson County, different story. (Mind, out in Johnson County, there's enough open land for outdoor ranges, you just have to convince people to drive the better part of an hour to get out there.)

Life always has trade-offs.

 

[jmorris]

I think the best idea is the concrete storm drain pipe under the parking lot. Cabellas in DFW right?

Bass pro shops in Grapevine has one under the store.

Cheaper just to shoot into them above ground like the ones outside Clark Custom in Prinston, LA though.

I am sure there are a number of others though.

Trajectory could become an issue depending on range and load.

If you were wanting to shoot a .22 lr 300 yards (something I would be interested in at a 300 yard indoor range) you are going to be looking at around 13 feet of drop with a 50 yard zero. That’s a big pipe.