.308/30-06 debate im having with myself

[John4me05]

Now i know in general the 308 and 30-06 are the same gun (bullet wise)... Now other than case size why is it that the majority of "accurate" long range shooters use a 308 and not a 06... You get more powder into a 06 and that translates into more speed which should (in theory) mean better trajectory and ballistics... Right????

So why is the 308 so popular

 

[R.W.Dale]

So why is the 308 so popular

most people really feel as though they must fit in with the rest of the crowd. Because your assessment correct in that as far as long range precision shooting goes there isn't anything that 308 does that 30-06 doesn't do better.


USSR this is your cue!

 

[Javelin]

Oh Wow. This is a kettle of worms!! Haha. Tons of posts about this I'm sure.

And I will just say this before everyone and their dog chimes in... they are both great calibers. '06 is a little more powerful, .308 is a little less expensive to shoot.

Be Safe.

 

[dmftoy1]

Lol . tagging this one for future reading . .

.308 fits into a short action as well. FWIW.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I'm sorry but I've never bought into the "my rifle is .75" shorter so it's more better" excuse. If this really were the case we would all be shooting single shots

 

[John4me05]

Ohh no... Did i say the wrong thing???
This is a serious question if anyone is wondering... Its something i would like to jsut know the answer to if there is one...

 

[dmftoy1]

Well that 3/4 of an inch is less metal that you're carrying at the end of a long day. Not much, but every little bit helps. It's also easier to reload .308 then .30-06 as you've got more room to get your fingers into the press opening. Oh yeah . . and then there's the shorter powder column thing. (think WSM, WSSH, RCM, etc. )

Oh yeah . . . try to find mil-surp once-fired 30-06 at Midway. . .

I personally have both, and they both shoot fine. I think the only real advantage to the 30-06 (IMHO) is that it shoots heavier bullets a little easier than the .308.

Just my .02

Regards,
Dave

 

[Jeffreii]

Accuracy has more to do with consistency rather than trajectory. The 308 has less velocity than the '06 but that doesn't mean anything as far as accuracy except in unpredictable windy scenarios where you would rather have the least time of flight.

The most accurate cartridge to date is the 6mm PPC - not the fastest 6mm by far, and obviously not all that powerfull.

Short fat cardidges burn the powder more uniformly, creating a more equal burn shot to shot. A long powder column, such as in an '06, although it has more capacity (though lower pressure!) than the 308, is not anywhere near as accurate.

To put it another way, say a gun shoots real flat - and another like a rainbow. That doesn't really matter in the end (save for above exception) as if you need to aim 5 feet high, so be it. Who cares. As long as the bullets consistantly hit 5 feet below your aim, every time, you're accurate. The flat one, only needs to aim 5 inches, but they are all over the place. See the difference? Fast is not always more accurate, and just about ALL load-ups for the round to be most accurate are not the fastest one, but the most consistent ones. The most accurate cartridge is not one that can push the bullet the fastest - but can push it the most consistent shot to shot. It is not how it compares to anything other than the previous shot that matters. That is all! The trajectory is great, but how it shot relative to the last one, and to the next one relative to current one, that matters.

Replace the concept of accuracy with consistency and it seems to help. The 308 is 2-3 times more accurate than the '06. I have barely shot either, but I can tell just by looking at the case that the 308 would be more accurate.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Well that 3/4 of an inch is less metal that you're carrying at the end of a long day. Not much, but every little bit helps. It's also easier to reload .308 then .30-06 as you've got more room to get your fingers into the press opening. Oh yeah . . and then there's the shorter powder column thing.

1 If those few ounces actually matter to you I suggest exercising more

2 if you're that much of a butterfingers perhaps reloading isn't for you

3 Opinions the shorter powder column theory range form the highly skeptical to the comical. Handloader magazine did a very informative test on this awhile back.

4 if long range accuracy is your game you won't get very good results using brass from mixed lots that has been fired in god knows what.

try buying once fired .308 brass from Midway It's not 1998 any more

Replace the concept of accuracy with consistency and it seems to help. The 308 is 2-3 times more accurate than the '06. I have barely shot either, but I can tell just by looking at the case that the 308 would be more accurate.

GOOD LORD that's funny right there I don't care who you are! I may have found a new quote

Back to my first posting, see what I mean people are willing to convince themselves of the silliest notions in order to fit in.

 

[John4me05]

Replace the concept of accuracy with consistency and it seems to help. The 308 is 2-3 times more accurate than the '06. I have barely shot either, but I can tell just by looking at the case that the 308 would be more accurate

But why is that...
I mean the 06 can be loaded to match the velocities of the 308 and they both shoot the same bullet... Now i havent ever EVER messed with the 308... Cant recall if i have ever really seen the ammo... But arent the case the same (i dont have my load book with measurements near me) with the 06 just being longer...

Or is the 06 being longer what your talkin about in a powder column

Now please remember i am still a rook at this so i dont know all the lingo and... Ill never learn nothin if i dont ask...

 

[neal7250]

Back in the day, when I was a pup in the army, the standard issue weapon, was the M-14 chambered in 7.62X51 (308). There were still sniper rifles 700 Remingtons chambered in 30-06. I have heard, that there are still a few of them in use today.

 

[The Bushmaster]

I shoot a .30-06 Browning. Why would I want a .308? and as far as weitht is concerned. I'm 5' 7" 145 lbs and I carry an A-bolt and 12 + 4 rounds for the rifle. I carry a S&W Mod 19 2 1/2" barrel and 10 + 6 rounds for it. I carry a Buck fixed blade, a canteen, small roll of TP and a candy bar or two and I don't find the Browning too heavy. Oh yeh...Forgot...I'm 65 too.

 

[Jeffreii]

But arent the case the same

negative

There is a better edge (relative!) to the older stats as there are better powders for the '06, but the 308 is still more accurate.

You are too confused by speed being the determining factor to accuracy. Just because you push the bullet faster than that same bullet in a slower cartridge does not mean it will be more accurate.

I would not worry too much to the difference unless you are bench shooting or into competition. The 30-06 can be you choice if you want heavier bullets. The lighter ones, the 308 can match, and sometimes EXCEED the 30-06 - remember it is a little higher pressure than the '06, but not much.

You most likely would get a better response in the competition forum than here, although most re loaders know about accuracy too and I am sure all of them know that consistency from shot to shot is what constitutes good accuracy, not the "fastest recipe" around.

It mostly has to do with "which can burn the powder the most uniformly each and every time" and a long column of powder is not good for uniformity. That is why the shorties with way less powder can match a larger case's round with accuracy. Being a bigger case is useless unless there is a perfect powder that can fill it up and not be over pressure. Many times there isn't and a smaller capacity one will be better because there is less empty space or a powder that is more consistent.

a good comparison here:
http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/AccuracyFacts.asp

although I think the 06 can do a little better now a days with better powders.


As far as which rifle to get - I would focus more on if you want a short action or not, or if you want to shoot heavier bullets or not. Keep in mind that many 06's twist rate isn't all that optimal with heavier bullets (such as 220 grainers). I would rather use a 338 or something if I needed to use such a heavy bullet. I prefer to have things in the "middle" of their capabilities rather than on the extremes. But that is me, and I do have 220 gr solids for 30 cal, so go figure!

 

[neal7250]

Great response and article Jeff

 

[Javelin]

Yep can-o-worms has been opened again!

 

[John4me05]

Jeff... I know about the speed factor.. My 30-06 load is well under max... Actually i think its in the middle (45.5 Varget)... But its deadly accurate in my gun (almost 1/2 MOA at 100yds out of a Savage 110E)... But i am basing my question on
Say both guns are loaded to a perfect load (1/2 MOA at 100 )...
Why would a 308 be a better long range choice... I mean ..... People do long range shooting with predominately 308... Now if you can get the same short range accuracy out of a 06.. Have both guns shooting identicle (same bullet but in their respective powder charges and speed that charge makes).. Would a 308 still be better for long range.... Or would the 06 have a edge due to the speed it can carry.. Or would they be the exact same....

I am interested in some sort of competition shooting... And i am wondering if my 06 would be able to hang with the 08s knowing i have the best load possible for MY gun...

 

[R.W.Dale]

OK if you have 2 rifles that shoot identical .50" 100yd groups one a 308 and one a 30-06 The 06 will always out preform the 308 at longer ranges in terms of wind drift.

With identical projectiles the time in flight will be less for the 30-06. But if you're using a 30-06 you're probably taking advantage of the extra horsepower by shooting a heavier and ballistaclly superior projectile such as the 190grn Sierra matchking.

The 30-06 will have more recoil which could be a concern and there are fewer match grade factory loads then what are offered for 308win. But with carefully assembled handloads in a accurate rifle the 30-06 will always out preform the 308

people often cite 308's mythical accuracy advantage over 30-06 but without being able to test both cartridges in the same rifle it's all just an OPINION! The whole notion that a bullet remembers what numbers were stamped on the casehead is total lunacy

In the same rifle barrel shooting the same quality handloads loaded with the most modern components I challenge anyone to come up with proof that the 308 is more accurate than 30-06


One thing I won't do is hold my breath waiting for this to happen!

 

[Art Eatman]

When the .308 was first put on the market, it was loaded to a chamber pressure around 55,000 psi. Most factory loads for the '06 were only loaded to about 49,000 psi because of the numbers of older rifles "out there". The muzzle velocities with 150-grain bullets were roughly equal.

The shorter case of the .308 was said to give slightly more consistent burning. The slightly shorter receiver possible due to the shorter case is obviously slightly stiffer, which is believed to promote accuracy. So, a helluva lot of R&D went into the various .308 rifles.

A shorter case does seem to lend itself to reliability in semi- and full-auto weapons.

The '06 is slightly overbore, and works better with longer barrels and slower powders. If loaded to 55,000 psi, it gives some 300 ft/sec more muzzle velocity with a 150-grain bullet than a .308. The advantage is greatest with 180- and 200-grain bullets.

So, in today's world, my opinion is that the '06 is better for a handloader/hunter, and the .308 is maybe better for those who don't handload. Not many factory rifles with 24" to 26" barrels available for the '06.

No big deal, either way...

Art

 

[Jeffreii]

John4me, I would say that, first off, the speed increase of an 06 compared to a 308 really is marginal, it is not all that much more. In the cases where you really need a quicker moving bullet - so the time of flight is reduced so the bullet would be under the influence of disruption to accuracy (wind a biggie) in long range shots, you would go with a 300 win mag or a 30-378 weatherby. Yeah, they won't be as consistent as a 308, but the decrease in the time the bullet is subject to all of the things that influence external ballistics would outweigh the benefits of internal ballistic advantages. The 06 would not be what you would use in that case of needed shortening of TOF.

The 30-06 is about the best cartridge out there as far as powder preference goes. That is what I like about it - it will have good results with more powders than any other round. The improvement of accuracy with the 308 in comparison is not all that beneficial to a hunter. The ranges they are used in for hunting lower the difference that you really can pick either one. It won't matter much, and most sporting rifles and shooters are more influential on the final outcome of accuracy than the round itself. The OP never stated intended purpose - more info is therefore digressing...

Note all that is more important for competition. Hunting, on the other hand, has more of a job than to just punch a hole in a target. A 308 may not have the power you need at longer ranges, if that is what you want. It ain't going to do you much good if you score a perfect hit but the bullet doesn't have enough energy to do what you want it to do.

 

[Jeffreii]

ART EASTMAN:

Good comment. That is true to remember that the 308 was intended as being suitable as a machine gun round. Like the 50 BMG are not 'high end' load designs (case capacity vs caliber), but medium. They are meant to shoot one round after the next without over heating/fatiguing the gun. You need a mild/medium round for that. Mediums work the best as they provide enough power to cycle the actions reliably, but low powered enough the gun isn't going to instantly overheat. I think the 308 winchester is about max already (for machine gun use) - I recall m60's having lots of heat problems, though that may be design probs with the m60 itself, especially the barrels. They most likely wouldn't have that handicap if they used, say, a 7.62x39, and perhaps the good ones that don't overheat with the 308's would if they used the 06's. And then there is the controllability side of things....

Yep can-o-worms has been opened again!

Good....let's go fishing - don't let any of them get away

 

[Jim Watson]

It's in the rules, if you shoot in organized rifle competition.

The .308 qualifies for NRA Service Rifle, Palma, and F-T/R; on the proper platform. You can shoot an M1 in Service Rifle if you want, but .30-06 is not eligible at all for Palma and it would put you into F-Open versus better long range cartridges.

For hunting, a .30-06 loaded to the same chamber pressure has some more power and that might be of more use than a fraction of an MOA, even if the .308 were proven more accurate under range conditions.

 

[lorddal]

my sniper rifle is a savage 110 e 30-06 and id swear by it

 

[ArchAngelCD]

In the hands of a real Marksman (read NOT ME!) I would bet a 06 is more accurate than a 308 when using a 175gr MatchKing bullet at 600 + yards.

 

[YodaVader]

Now other than case size why is it that the majority of "accurate" long range shooters use a 308 and not a 06...

Most precision shooters use a long heavy barrel sniper/varmint style rifle for long range shooting. I can find this type of rifle in .308 from nearly any rifle maker but try finding the same in .30-06.

Remington makes the 700P/700LTR/700SPS Tactical in .308 , their laminated 700VLS in .308 and SPS Varmint - none of those are available in .30-06. All the Savage rifles including their 30" barrel long range rifle , again available in .308 , not in .30-06. Others like Ruger , CZ and Tikka seem to favor the .308 for these types of rifles as well.

Evidently the demand for a .30-06 in this type of rifle is not there. The long action rifles of this type are easily found in .300 Mag. Since many feel the .30-06 is so much better than the .308 then it would only reason that the .300 Mag is much more so than the .30-06 simply due to powder volume.

 

[dmftoy1]

To me this is a Ford vs Chevy kind of debate but I'll throw out some more that I thought of last night. (not related to the cartridges themselves, but one of the factors that might influence your decision if you're not purely a bolt-action guy)

30-06 - M1 Garand, BM59, BAR (very cool rifles)

.308 - M1 Garand, M1A (M14), FAL, CEMTE, HK91, BAR

It's all what floats your boat. I like 30-06 right now because there's cheap Greek Surplus available and I like to shoot for cheap. Some people are into ultimate accuracy, some people into bullet weight for hunting, etc etc.

If cheap .308 comes back on the market then I'm going to be very tempted to pick up an M1A . . .right now I'm enjoying my Garand.