cracked butt
Member
Another expert edumacated by the intranetz
.308/30-06 debate im having with myself
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Another expert edumacated by the intranetz
John4me05
Member
Im gonna have to read all this a few times to completely digest the info...
But in quick reading it seems to be a larger issue of supply and demand (there is minimal supply at best but hardly no demand) and the job at hand (hunting and heat issues)...
But there is good arguements... I may have to try to get me a 308 and try shooting about 200yds groups and see what goes on...
But in quick reading it seems to be a larger issue of supply and demand (there is minimal supply at best but hardly no demand) and the job at hand (hunting and heat issues)...
But there is good arguements... I may have to try to get me a 308 and try shooting about 200yds groups and see what goes on...
jerkface11
Member
The real question is which is more accurate 7.5x55 Swiss or 7.5x54 French?
If bullets are 150 grains and less, ballistics will be very similar especially if you reload. 165 grains and above is where 06 case capacity really shows its virtue.
I reload both, and good loads from either are very, very accurate.
I reload both, and good loads from either are very, very accurate.
1911NM
Member
Quote:
The 308 is 2-3 times more accurate than the '06. I have barely shot either, but I can tell just by looking at the case that the 308 would be more accurate.
Another expert edumacated by the intranetz.
LOL, may have been another case of "hold my beer and watch this".
The 308 is 2-3 times more accurate than the '06. I have barely shot either, but I can tell just by looking at the case that the 308 would be more accurate.
Another expert edumacated by the intranetz.
LOL, may have been another case of "hold my beer and watch this".
Back in ancient history, you fired at Highpower match the rounds that fit into the rules and were around, that is 308 and 30-06. In time the 308 dominated Match rifle class, out to 600 yards, because 1) cheap 30-06 match brass went away 2) the 308 kicks less, and 3) many believed the 308 had a slight edge in accuracy. The third point was hard to prove on paper, but theorists were able to make good arguments based on air space within the 30-06. However they were not able to provide a good argument when the 30-06 was used with a powder like 4350 which left very little air space.
Anyway, at 600 and 1000 yards, wind reading ability was the big difference in scores between shooters, not whether they used a 308 or 30-06.
For decades the only good match bullets were in 308, so serious shooters used 308 cartridges. Some stout souls used 300 Win Mags. Which is an excellent long range cartridge, and won many a 1000 yard event. But few people could shoot that cartridge prone before developing a severe flinch.
Then came excellent subcaliber rounds. When bullet makers made match quality and consistent 6 mm and 6.5 mm bullets, the long range competition ran away from the 308 caliber. The sub caliber rounds provide excellent accuracy but more important provide outstanding wind bucking ability. Given same accuracy, the bullet that moves less in the wind will win more matches.
Wind is very unpredictable you see.
USSR
Member
Hmmm, to paraphrase you: I have barely seen your posts, but i can tell just by looking at them, that you don't know diddly squat.
Sorry to bust your bubble, but in REAL LIFE, accuracy is more a factor of the gunsmith, the rifle, and the man behind the trigger, than it is the length of the case.Don
John4me05
Member
Just to pick your brain some more... the 06 shoots 308 as well... Do you think it was jsut more because the bullets were sold as 308 on the box they just used the 308 rifle or what...
HEhehe THis is just 1 of lifes mysteries to me i am searching for an answer to...
Ill give it to them the 308 seems (just by seeing them shot.. Havent touched one myself) to kick less...
My Savage gives me a beating after 40 or 50 rounds... But if i were dumb (kinda like i am) i would choose the 06 simply based on velocity standpoint... I know that speed and weight will lead to better ballistics, less wind drift, and just overall better performance...
Wish i knew someone with a Savage 110E in 308 that i could load up Varget for so all variables would be the same (try to get the best accuracy and do my best to match the speeds) just to see if there realy is a difference...
I mean i could do a head to head but without the same platform (gun, bullet weight, speed, etc) there are too many open arguements for why 1 was performing better than the other..
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
#1 = Because that is what the service AMU M-14 Match rifles were chambered for, and that was the standard military round at the time.
Had M-14's been chambered for 30-06, that's what all the accuracy developements by the service AMU Teams would have been centered around.
Not the .308!
rcmodel
Vern Humphrey
Member
The .308 is the standard military sniper cartridge and a lot of work has been put into it. For long range target work, the M14 and M1A have supplanted the Garand. And the .308 fulfils the major criteria of long range target shooting -- it doesn't fall below the speed of sound before it reaches the target (that's a killer factor in accuracy, passing "backward" through the sonic barrier.)
So the .308 is as good as the .30-06 for target and long range work.
Having said that, there are a lot of old .30-06 bull guns out there with glass smooth actions from firing tens of thousands of rounds and burning out a few barrels in the process. They work just fine in the Palma Match (1,000 yards.)
So the .308 is as good as the .30-06 for target and long range work.
Having said that, there are a lot of old .30-06 bull guns out there with glass smooth actions from firing tens of thousands of rounds and burning out a few barrels in the process. They work just fine in the Palma Match (1,000 yards.)
John4me05
Member
Does anyone know if the rifling twist has alot to do with it now a days...
Doesn anyone know how much twist i have in my stock 110E Savage...
My first question is more of do manufacturers use a given amount of twist across the gambit of rifles in a specific caliber or does each one use their own "secret" recipe...
Doesn anyone know how much twist i have in my stock 110E Savage...
My first question is more of do manufacturers use a given amount of twist across the gambit of rifles in a specific caliber or does each one use their own "secret" recipe...
John4me05
Member
I know barrel length has alot to do with accuracy too... Just from shooting muzzleloaders... Lots of difference in range and accuracy with different twist rates and barrel lengths...
Jeffreii
Member
Seems many readers are having problems with one of my posts, especially because I stated "I barely shot either" in it. That is because my conclusion was not based on personal experience but on physics and similarities to cartridges of known good accuracy design. I apologize for being vague or coming across in a way that I was not trying to. Nor was I trying to knock the excellent 30-06 cartridge, which believe me or not is one of my favorites.
First, obviously the cartridge itself is quite down on the list as far as accuracy goes. The shooter is quite high on that list. Others stated that, and that is true. But the OP isn't talking about other variables so I did not include them, even though they are obviously in the equation and even a more significant part of it. Second, I don't intend on knocking the 06. I love both of them, and the 06 seems much better for hunting than the 308 if you want to use heavier bullets. The 308 is best with lighter ones than may not be what a hunter is preferring to use. Although a lot of this is because the 308's tend to have 1:12 twists, the 06's 1:10. 1:10 is nicer for the heavier bullets (like 200 gr).
If you spend any time at all looking through various books (such as reloading manuals) they describe the cartridges, you can see their performances, and see how they are designed. It does not take too much to see certain designs are more efficient than others. It does not take much to see certain traits in cartridge design that effect its performance. Based on all of the new craze of shorter powder columns but same powder capacity yield much better results. The 6PPC is extremely accurate, and most cases that closely resemble it are accurate too. If you read on why that cartridge is the worlds most accurate, you understand things that work better in a cartridge, and I was stating that there were more of those characteristics in a 308 than a 06. Shooting either was irrelevant.
Also, don't take it that I know a lot. I don't. No one does other than God. The more you know, the more you know that you don't know. I do try to understand the "why" in things where I lot of people don't, even more don't even care. I am interested a lot more in the ballistics and physics than the actual "shooting" - the shooting is just a verification. It is too costly to go and design by trial and error, and if you know enough about what you are doing (I sure don't) you do not need to.
Perhaps I was a little mis-lead to state the above, however I have yet ran into anyone that gets better accuracy out of an 06 than a 308, that have isolated out as neutral all the other parts to the equation and boiled it down to the cartridge itself. You find those types who do so at bench rest shooting competitions/matches - and I will trust that if everyone hits better with the 308 compared to the 06, it must be a more accurate cartridge. It has nothing to do with the so-called "intranetz." Don't even know such a word, but then again I don't study much slang or have found a need to.
The bottom line is that unless one is into isolating out all other variables in the equation of absolute accuracy, either will do and can be chosen by simple preference of action type/size and bullet weight utilization or economics. It simply does not matter if the other factors are not addressed - and unless you are competition shooting it won't make a difference as the other factors are more influential. If all else fails, flip a coin.
First, obviously the cartridge itself is quite down on the list as far as accuracy goes. The shooter is quite high on that list. Others stated that, and that is true. But the OP isn't talking about other variables so I did not include them, even though they are obviously in the equation and even a more significant part of it. Second, I don't intend on knocking the 06. I love both of them, and the 06 seems much better for hunting than the 308 if you want to use heavier bullets. The 308 is best with lighter ones than may not be what a hunter is preferring to use. Although a lot of this is because the 308's tend to have 1:12 twists, the 06's 1:10. 1:10 is nicer for the heavier bullets (like 200 gr).
If you spend any time at all looking through various books (such as reloading manuals) they describe the cartridges, you can see their performances, and see how they are designed. It does not take too much to see certain designs are more efficient than others. It does not take much to see certain traits in cartridge design that effect its performance. Based on all of the new craze of shorter powder columns but same powder capacity yield much better results. The 6PPC is extremely accurate, and most cases that closely resemble it are accurate too. If you read on why that cartridge is the worlds most accurate, you understand things that work better in a cartridge, and I was stating that there were more of those characteristics in a 308 than a 06. Shooting either was irrelevant.
Also, don't take it that I know a lot. I don't. No one does other than God. The more you know, the more you know that you don't know. I do try to understand the "why" in things where I lot of people don't, even more don't even care. I am interested a lot more in the ballistics and physics than the actual "shooting" - the shooting is just a verification. It is too costly to go and design by trial and error, and if you know enough about what you are doing (I sure don't) you do not need to.
Perhaps I was a little mis-lead to state the above, however I have yet ran into anyone that gets better accuracy out of an 06 than a 308, that have isolated out as neutral all the other parts to the equation and boiled it down to the cartridge itself. You find those types who do so at bench rest shooting competitions/matches - and I will trust that if everyone hits better with the 308 compared to the 06, it must be a more accurate cartridge. It has nothing to do with the so-called "intranetz." Don't even know such a word, but then again I don't study much slang or have found a need to.
The bottom line is that unless one is into isolating out all other variables in the equation of absolute accuracy, either will do and can be chosen by simple preference of action type/size and bullet weight utilization or economics. It simply does not matter if the other factors are not addressed - and unless you are competition shooting it won't make a difference as the other factors are more influential. If all else fails, flip a coin.
R.W.Dale
Member
From reading some of the comments expounding on the imagined superiority of the 308 I think I may have discovered the ULTIMATE 1000yd 30caliber rifle cartridge
7.62x39
Yes the little russian is obviously superior to 308 in all aspects related to long range shooting
1. Since the shorter the powder column the more accurate the cartrige the x39 beats the pants off 308 in this respect
2. It's been clearly stated that a bullets velocity and ballistic coefficient is irrevelant in distance shooting the x39 matches the 308 in this category
3. Short actions being vastly better than longer ones means that a 7.62x39 in a mini mauser is 84.6% mo better than a 308 in a STD short action
4. Since only a few super men can handle 30-06'es recoil and 308 is all the average operator can handle 7.62x39 can be fired accurately out to 800yds by the average 4 year old
By extrapolations based on Jeffreii's expert calculations I come up with the following.
308win is 11mm shorter than 30-06 and is on average 2.5 times more accurate. So with the 7.62x39 being a full 12mm shorter than 308 that means the little russian round is about 2.6x more accurate than that.
So by my calculations the 7.62x39 is 74.8% more accurate than the OL 06 and 40% better than 308. That means the largest group you'll ever see fired from a x39 will measure no more than .253 MOA
Besides the 7.62x39 looks more accurate than 308
7.62x39
Yes the little russian is obviously superior to 308 in all aspects related to long range shooting
1. Since the shorter the powder column the more accurate the cartrige the x39 beats the pants off 308 in this respect
2. It's been clearly stated that a bullets velocity and ballistic coefficient is irrevelant in distance shooting the x39 matches the 308 in this category
3. Short actions being vastly better than longer ones means that a 7.62x39 in a mini mauser is 84.6% mo better than a 308 in a STD short action
4. Since only a few super men can handle 30-06'es recoil and 308 is all the average operator can handle 7.62x39 can be fired accurately out to 800yds by the average 4 year old
By extrapolations based on Jeffreii's expert calculations I come up with the following.
308win is 11mm shorter than 30-06 and is on average 2.5 times more accurate. So with the 7.62x39 being a full 12mm shorter than 308 that means the little russian round is about 2.6x more accurate than that.
So by my calculations the 7.62x39 is 74.8% more accurate than the OL 06 and 40% better than 308. That means the largest group you'll ever see fired from a x39 will measure no more than .253 MOA
Besides the 7.62x39 looks more accurate than 308
while I'll grant that the 30-06 has a ballistic/wind advantage, I'll take the 308win any day.
1. go to a precision shooting class. If anyone has experienced something different, pipe up, but I'll wager there were at least 80/20% 308/'06 shooters, maybe 90/10. My observation: Lunch on TD1, 308win shooters are gathered with the instructor soaking up info. '06 shooters are somewhere with "that guy" who brought the 300winmag trying to buy extra shoulder pads.
you can shoot 308 a lot, and practice (especially in the wind) is so much more important than the extra 300fps and a bit higher BC bullet.
2. handloads are just flat hard to cock up. (just about any decent bullet and powder combination will give good results.) it's very forgiving and easy to reload.
3. it's a lot less expensive for quality components. e.g. prices for lapua 308 vs 30-06 brass
Personally, I prefer any number of 6mm and 6.5mm (or even 7mm) cartridges to the 308win, and I prefer any number of 30/338 cal magnum cartridges to the 30-06. So, the only use I have for the 308win is in a Stoner SR-25 semi-auto, and I have no use whatsoever for any 30-06.
1. go to a precision shooting class. If anyone has experienced something different, pipe up, but I'll wager there were at least 80/20% 308/'06 shooters, maybe 90/10. My observation: Lunch on TD1, 308win shooters are gathered with the instructor soaking up info. '06 shooters are somewhere with "that guy" who brought the 300winmag trying to buy extra shoulder pads.
you can shoot 308 a lot, and practice (especially in the wind) is so much more important than the extra 300fps and a bit higher BC bullet.
2. handloads are just flat hard to cock up. (just about any decent bullet and powder combination will give good results.) it's very forgiving and easy to reload.
3. it's a lot less expensive for quality components. e.g. prices for lapua 308 vs 30-06 brass
Personally, I prefer any number of 6mm and 6.5mm (or even 7mm) cartridges to the 308win, and I prefer any number of 30/338 cal magnum cartridges to the 30-06. So, the only use I have for the 308win is in a Stoner SR-25 semi-auto, and I have no use whatsoever for any 30-06.
USSR
Member
krochus,
I'll see your 7.62x39, and raise you my 7.62x33 (M1 Carbine).
Jeffreii,
Yeah, if you stop and think about it, your post professing some kind of "inherent" knowledge about something that you readily admit you have no real personal experience with, might tend to "rankle" a few people who have many years of real experience with both cartridges.
Well, Yes, God knows, and there are a few people on this site that know as well, from personal experience. And by personal experience, I don't mean "looking through various books" or simply regurgitating what you find by Googling a subject, but rather the "actual shooting" part that you seem to disdain. So, essentially what I am saying is, if you want to learn, then it is far better to ask questions and submit yourself to years of load development and actual shooting, rather than to hypothesize about a subject that you know little to nothing about.
Don
I'll see your 7.62x39, and raise you my 7.62x33 (M1 Carbine).
Jeffreii,
Yeah, if you stop and think about it, your post professing some kind of "inherent" knowledge about something that you readily admit you have no real personal experience with, might tend to "rankle" a few people who have many years of real experience with both cartridges.
Well, Yes, God knows, and there are a few people on this site that know as well, from personal experience. And by personal experience, I don't mean "looking through various books" or simply regurgitating what you find by Googling a subject, but rather the "actual shooting" part that you seem to disdain. So, essentially what I am saying is, if you want to learn, then it is far better to ask questions and submit yourself to years of load development and actual shooting, rather than to hypothesize about a subject that you know little to nothing about.
Don
R.W.Dale
Member
Won't work! you must understand that it HAS to be a short fat case, short and skinny offers nowhere near the aesthetic accuracy potental.
USSR
Member
Ah, taliv, you might be on to something. Suggest you call it the .308SFU (Short, Fat, Ugly).
Don
OK, in all seriousness, if we do go the shorter route...
What about .30 TC? Or is it too new to have any track record?
As for the .308... http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4051737&postcount=40
What about .30 TC? Or is it too new to have any track record?
As for the .308... http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4051737&postcount=40
Vern Humphrey
Member
By-and-large, rifling twist is standard for each cartridge. There are exceptions -- for example, you can get fast or slow twist barrels in .223 -- the former intended to shoot extra long and heavy bullets.
If you want to know the twist on your rifle, put a tape flag on you cleaning rod, and slowly push a patched jag down the bore. The flag will rotate as the rifling grips the patched jag and you continue to push it down the bore. When it makes one complete rotation, measure the amount the rod has entered the bore, and that's your twist rate. For example, if the flag makes a complete rotation in a foot of travel, you have a 1 in 12 twist.
John4me05
Member
Thanks for the info...
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