.308 / 30-06 felt recoil

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GOOD LORD I've never seen such hair splitting over the utterly minor differences in recoil of the two cartridges. For crying out loud the .308 was DESIGNED to match 30-06 ballistics. So you've got the SAME WEIGHT projectile and the SAME VELOCITY at that point you've got equal kinetic energy so all this theorizing comes down to precisely NO DIFFERENCE!

The high velocity BS about how the 30-06 "can handle heavier projectiles" is truly a figment of most shooters imagination. Given that you can't often FIND a 190+ grain load for the 30-06 on a dealers shelf AND there is no reason that the .308 can't have one handloaded. In point of fact the difference in velocity lost due to the .308's case length and powder space impingement would likely come to 20FPS give or take. Either way you're looking at 40 ft-lbs loss which WON'T MATTER ONE WHIT on any game animal you'd likely shoot.

With all that said, I think the 30-06 is a fine cartridge and any hunter would be well served by one. I just think the mindless repetition about the .308 not handling heavy bullets is overblown.
 
GOOD LORD I've never seen such hair splitting over the utterly minor differences in recoil of the two cartridges. For crying out loud the .308 was DESIGNED to match 30-06 ballistics. So you've got the SAME WEIGHT projectile and the SAME VELOCITY at that point you've got equal kinetic energy so all this theorizing comes down to precisely NO DIFFERENCE!

The high velocity BS about how the 30-06 "can handle heavier projectiles" is truly a figment of most shooters imagination. Given that you can't often FIND a 190+ grain load for the 30-06 on a dealers shelf AND there is no reason that the .308 can't have one handloaded. In point of fact the difference in velocity lost due to the .308's case length and powder space impingement would likely come to 20FPS give or take. Either way you're looking at 40 ft-lbs loss which WON'T MATTER ONE WHIT on any game animal you'd likely shoot.

With all that said, I think the 30-06 is a fine cartridge and any hunter would be well served by one. I just think the mindless repetition about the .308 not handling heavy bullets is overblown.
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Well, were do I start. Obviously, you've never reloaded either of these cartridges with heavy bullets. Once you get away from the concept that you must load down the .30-06 to function thru a Garand, the .30-06 can be loaded with heavier bullets where it leaves the .308 in the dust (read that as ALOT more than 20fps). Having reloaded both the .308 and .30-06 with 190SMK's, I can tell you that there is atleast 250fps difference between the two using the heavier bullets. So, as you can see, there is validity to the FACT that the .30-06 is better suited to heavier bullets than the .308.

Don
 
I personally prefer .308 because there is somewhat better ammo availability and pricing. However, if you just want bigger than .223, you might want to consider a necked-down variant of the .308.
1. If you want plenty of ammo and rifle choices and are considering hunting varmits up to deer, .243 is the obvious choice.
2. If you want good long-range accuracy, you should consider 7mm-08. Make sure the ammo and the gun you want are available at a reasonable price. You will have less recoil than .308 or 30-06, and slightly better ballistics.
Richard
Schennberg.com
 
There was a thread on here a while ago talking about the remington 710. There was hardly anyone who had anything good to say about. I have one in .30-06 and although the bolt action isnt very smooth it shoots fairly accurate. supposedly the 710 an economy version of the 700. I havent shot it out to 1000 yards and probably dont plan to. The bushnell scope it comes with isnt the greatest either. The remington 700 is probably a better buy and not too much more. If you go with the .30-06 or .308 i doubt youll be disappointed. Also, if you just want something bigger than a .223 then maybe you should look at some of the mil surp rifles. They're alot cheaper along with the surplus ammo. Maybe also try looking at an sks or mauser. I have a 8mm k98 mauser and its an extremely fun gun to shoot with a really smooth bolt action to it. have fun shopping
 
Jimmeny Christmas...

Yes, the recoil of the .308 might be a little different from the .30-06. But in factory loads, the shape of the recoil force vs. time curve will be only a little different*. (Different burn rates/pressure curves mean different force vs. time curves) And any difference there is will likely be much less than the gun itself (weight, fit to the shooter, recoil pad, etc.). Frankly, we're well into "princess and the pea" territory. So, don't choose one over the other due to recoil. Pick the one that comes in the gun you like. Or the one that has more ammo available in your area. Or chose a .30-06 for heavy hand-loaded bullets. Or the .308 because it can be had in a lighter short-action. But don't choose on recoil. Unless you happen to be a princess. :evil:

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm pretty partial to the .30-06.


*yes, the difference gets bigger with heavier bullets. If that bothers you, stay away from heavy bullets.
 
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NateG has it right on.

"Once you get away from the concept that you must load down the .30-06 to function thru a Garand, the .30-06 can be loaded with heavier bullets where it leaves the .308 in the dust"

Exceeding SAMMI specs makes lots of things possible. IF you could purchase such a loading off a dealers shelf, you would have a much more valid point. For the lions share of your claim, you are loading just shy of 300 Win Mag which would be a better choice. Most of the yammering about the 30-06 being superior is based on handloaders (yes I am one) who're biased towards heavyweight bullets. Yet the .308 has the accuracy record hands down so I posit that the imaginary magnum capacity is less important than accuracy. Further the earlier assertion that recoil energy would be so similar that the envelope of human sensory couldn't tell a real difference.

Please note that the 1000yd bullseye at Camp Perry was reduced in diameter BY HALF following the debut of the .308 Winchester. NO OTHER CARTRIDGE HAS EVER MADE SUCH A MEASURABLE IMPROVEMENT.
 
Oh, also, you had mentioned a Savage earlier. I have to admit, I'm really impressed with mine. I picked up a $250 used 111 in .30-06 (or maybe 116, I can't remember their model numbers)--the one with a synthetic stock and blued barrel. I figured I'd use it as a donor action to build a rifle in some 6.5mm cartridge of some sort. However, I shot it first. Woohoo! That thing can shoot. Well under 1" at 100 yards for 5 shots. (And all the sub-1" groups go to the same spot. I haven't done any statistical analysis or shot groups of more shots as I haven't had it more than a couple of weeks... but I'm really impressed.) This rifle is a keeper. The scope's probably on the chopping block, but I'm not going to mess with it until the late antlerless season's over. And the stock's kind of flimsy, and the barrel's a little shorter than I would like... but it shoots so well I'll just deal with it. So, now I have to find a new donor action. I hate it when a cheap rifle turns out to be a gem. :evil:

Of course, as someone or other said, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data." But it seems to be most folks experience that the savage rifles shoot darn well. (And I like the accutrigger, too)

On the other hand, the other rifles you mentioned are quite nice, and probably look a bit better. (I'm not bothered by the barrel nut, but I'll admit, it doesn't make the rifle any prettier)

Also, richardschennberg's advice is pretty good. I don't have a 7mm08, but I've got a 7x57 mauser (which is darn close, balistically) and quite like it. If recoil is a consideration, a 7mm08 will do just about everything a .308 can do, (I can't think of anything off the top of my head I wouldn't do with a 7mm08 that I'd do with a .308, but I'm sure there's something) and it'll have a little less recoil. And, if you handload, you can have a lot of fun with the 7mm bullets. I'm liking the 6.5 and 7 mm bullets more the more I play with them.

Oh, have you decided on a rifle/chambering yet? I don't think you'd go wrong with any of the things you've suggested, although I wouldn't get the Tikka in .308, but my local shop's got a Tikka in .30-06--very nice. Tikka uses the same receiver length for the long-action cartridges (e.g., .30-06) as for the short (e.g., 308), so you're losing one of the selling points of the .308 (a shorter, lighter, and possibly stiffer receiver). However, if you like the rifle, and that's the cartridge you want, it'll make an excellent (and darn good looking, too) rifle.

Have fun
 
Exceeding SAMMI specs makes lots of things possible. IF you could purchase such a loading off a dealers shelf, you would have a much more valid point. For the lions share of your claim, you are loading just shy of 300 Win Mag which would be a better choice.
Click to expand...

"Hornady's Light Magnum™ ammunition delivers more energy, flatter trajectory and up to 200 fps faster velocities than standard ammo without the additional heat or pressure associated with conventional magnums".

rockstar,

No need to exceed SAMMI specs when you've got case capacity and the newer slow burning powders. If you stop in to http://www.snipershide.com sometime, you will see that the load I mentioned does not exceed SAMMI pressure specs, and has been used as recently as last year for a 3rd place finish in 1,000 yard F Class competition. Oh, and the 1st and 2nd place finishes were not made with either a .308 Win. or a .300WM.;)

Don
 
I'm totally with rockstar.

If you line up a dozen various rifles in both cartridges, and shoot them all a few times blindfolded, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between several different rifle and bullet wights, and other variations.

I think VERY FEW shooters really fully understand and take advantage of the actual difference between the two.

And I don't know why anyone would steer clear of a M700. I have them in .308 and 30-06, and I can't remember why I ever would have used anything else.
 
USSR,

Okay, I'll bite. :) What powder(s) are you using for the 192gr SMK load? I mainly use the IMR powders, and a little varget thrown in for good measure. I'd love to play around with the heavier bullets a little in my 06s. One of them in particular does not like light bullets at all, but shoots the heavies pretty well.

Thanks,
Nate
 
USSR, I'll have to conceed that I don't have the equipment to properly test those loads and as such I'll take you at your word. I do find it interesting that the loads you mentioned are three years old given that my initial complaint was due to the years (greater than three) that I've endured the statements about 30-06 heavy bullet advantages. I do appreciate an informed responder :)

For what it's worth the Hornady load you mentioned isn't availible at any gun shop I've ever been in. Plus it's got a huge disclaimer that it can't be used in semi autos.
https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_se...&category_id=3fd358901ec2b806cdbb152612e888c8
Based on their site, that load isn't using 190grain+ bullet weights which was the basis of your assertion.

Although I can see your point about the winners at 1000yd F Class. The point I made regarding the .308 Winchester was less about who won than about how the consistency of the then new .308 made it necessary to reduce the bull diameter in order to score the match more precisely.

Frankly I think the 30-06 is a great cartridge however there is absolutely nothing I'd do with a 30-06 I couldn't do with a .308. If velocity was my main interest I'd skip the 30-06 and go straight for a magnum.
 
Don't see what all the argument is about.

The .30-06 is just a step above the .308 on the power scale, just like .300winmag is a step above the .30-06.

The only real confusion comes in because, unlike the .308, there are quite a few rifles that are 90-100 years old chambered in .30-06. Because of that, and the fact that many of those weren't designed to take heavy loads, factory loads tend to be a little on the light side for .30-06.

Doesn't mean that the .30-06 can't handle more pressure, just means that ammo companies don't want to blow up someones old model 1903.

Same reason why .45-70 loads tend to be on the light side, compared to what they are capable of. Lots of old trapdoors out there, and the ammo companies try to avoid blowing them up.

I.G.B.
 
IGB the "fuss" is about the continued and inaccurate assertion that the 30-06 is somehow "more powerfull" than the .308 Winchester.

USSR is the absolute FIRST poster to actually show some evidence contrary to what I've long since maintained is a common falsehood. Conceeding the possibility that the loads USSR posted about truly aren't exceeding SAMMI specs for the 30-06 doesn't alleviate the point of contention that those loads are based on powder developments over the course of the last three years.

SO the deal is that the 30-06 is not loaded commercially with those so called heavy bullets that handloaders/ 30-06 advocates claim as the great virtue of the 30-06. For 99.99% of commercially made ammo, the 30-06 HAS NO ADVANTAGE AT ALL over the .308 Winchester. The .308 Winchester however has several advantages over the 30-06.

Just so's you know, the 300 Win Mag's pushing a lot more pressure and represents a considerable increase in "power" over either the 30-06 or the .308 Win. As well it should for consuming nearly 30% more powder!
 
Okay, I'll bite. What powder(s) are you using for the 192gr SMK load? I mainly use the IMR powders, and a little varget thrown in for good measure. I'd love to play around with the heavier bullets a little in my 06s. One of them in particular does not like light bullets at all, but shoots the heavies pretty well.
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NateG,

Okay. The powders you are using, Varget and probably either IMR4895 or IMR4064, are the commonly used and "traditional" powders associated with this cartridge. Powders of this burn rate are also used by the ammunition manufacturers as well, out of concern that you may use said ammo in a low number 1903 or a Garand or other autoloader. Use of this powder comes no where's near to filling up the case of a .30-06, and if you did fill up the case with this powder, you would get high pressure that would possibly destroy your rifle. So, what I and another shooter (Shane) did was, go searching for a powder that would give maximum pressure (within SAMMI specs) with a full case of powder. Looking at burn rate charts, I saw two fairly common powders that held promise: H4831 and RL22. I bought both powders and set to work doing load development with them. H4831 was a big disappointment, as I could never get suitable velocities out of it, but RL22 was a huge success. With 60.7gr of RL22 in a Lapua case, I got 2875fps and excellent accuracy. Shane used Norma brass and exceeded 2900fps with it. So, last year I bought some Norma brass and found it to be very light with a larger case capacity. I was able to get 61.4gr of RL22 into it for 2920fps. This is the load I used in F Class competition last year. The above velocities were obtained with a 26" Krieger barrel. While the above loads are safe in any modern bolt rifle, they are not designed to be fired in a Garand or other autoloading rifle. This is why I say if you rid yourself of the concept that you must load the .30-06 to function thru a Garand, the .30-06 can be safely loaded with heavier bullets where it is ballistically closer to the .300WM than the .308 Win.

Don
 
Thanks, USSR. I have yet to play with any of the Reloader powders. Looks like I'll have to give them a shot one of these days.
 
Just for dollars and cents...yes I actually spelled cents right! The .308 is a far better bargan than .30-06 even if you re-load. If you are going to shoot a lot and I hope you are, then I'd go .308 for sure unless you are wealthy and ammo pricing is of no object. I can get a ammo case of Austrailian Match 144gr for $60.00 for 200, and they even have great pricing on the nnet like at Cabellas and stuff on the good stuff loaded with the fine Speer 168gr TBHP which is kind of like the Sierra bullet in the Federal GMM.
 
Out of all the rifles that have been mentioned so far I would go with either the Tikka or the CZ. You can get a CZ American or Varmint cheaper than the Kevlar. Actually the CZ 550 can be picked up for right around $550. I have both the Tikka T3 and several CZ's and they are excellent rifles, very accurate and the triggers are one of the best I have used. The CZ's are also very accurate and have the set trigger which make them the best in my opinion. I like my Rem 700's too but the CZ and the Tikka's are just a little better rifle for the money in my opinion. The CZ and Tikka's trigger are way better than the accu-trigger if you ask me.

As far as the 308 or the 30-06 goes, the 308 will be cheaper to shoot if you don't reload. Neither will be difficult to shoot as far as recoil is concerned. I have the 06 in a Rem700 BDL and it is a pleasure to shoot. I'm 5-10 and 190 pounds and it doesn't bother me a bit. My Rem 700BDL 30-06 has way less recoil than my Rem 870 12ga slug gun.

My $.02 for what it's worth.:cool:
 
Go for the Savage...the Accutrigger is easily adjustable and is a real value in itself. Many police SWAT teams use the Savage 10/110. Having used both, I see no advantages of the Remington 700 that warrant the extra expense over a Savage...they shoot equally well.

I favor the .308 Win over the .30-06 (I use both) for these reasons:
(1.) The .30-06 was developed a century ago when the case volume was necessary for powders of the day. As more efficient powders were developed, the .30-06 wound up with a lot of empty space in its case (shake one!). The .308 Win is simply the .30-06 shortened to get rid of the empty space. Shooting characteristics are practically identical.
(2.) The .30-06 requires a long action while the .308 uses a short action. Why carry the extra weight?;)
 
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