.308 AR vs. M-14
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Ash
Member
Accuracy is irrelevant between the two platforms, because you aren't going to be shooting pistols out of bad guys hands. You are going to be hitting man-sized targets. Arguing which is sub MOA is drifting in the weeds. With that in mind, the M14 platform will work well. But, then, so will the AR-10 style platform.
Having gone through SHTF, I do find these kind of talks interesting and sometimes amusing. I was prepared, had plenty of food, and then commenced to cleaning up following Katrina. Fortunately, my small Mississippi town did not descend into chaos (the northwest eyewall passed directly over us).
Of course, had I been in New Orleans with a super-fancy M14 copy, my precious Smith customized Norinco would have been confiscated and would have ended up rusting in the trailer.
In any case, I probably would use, of these examples, the M14 in standard furniture. I actually have a Mini-14GB and an FAL for that reason. But, in the end, a full tank of gas and 8 filled 6 gallon cans were far more valuable than any firearm I owned. As I choose to live in a more civilized area of the country, death squads or looters trying to take my stuff was not a problem.
Ash
Having gone through SHTF, I do find these kind of talks interesting and sometimes amusing. I was prepared, had plenty of food, and then commenced to cleaning up following Katrina. Fortunately, my small Mississippi town did not descend into chaos (the northwest eyewall passed directly over us).
Of course, had I been in New Orleans with a super-fancy M14 copy, my precious Smith customized Norinco would have been confiscated and would have ended up rusting in the trailer.
In any case, I probably would use, of these examples, the M14 in standard furniture. I actually have a Mini-14GB and an FAL for that reason. But, in the end, a full tank of gas and 8 filled 6 gallon cans were far more valuable than any firearm I owned. As I choose to live in a more civilized area of the country, death squads or looters trying to take my stuff was not a problem.
Ash
I absolutely agree that everyone needs a longer TSHTF list than
_x_ Gun
_x_ Ammo
and that preparedness is a darned good thing, but sometimes you SHTF plan to bug-in will not work, because the place you decided to make a bunker has been wiped off of the face of the earth by a natural disaster, or otherwise made uninhabitable. So, make sure you have a plan to bug OUT as well.
As to weapons, we do this same old thing every few months.
1. Handguns are more useful than long guns in many situations, so making sure you have both is key.
2. If you have to move on foot, having a long gun you can carry without lookng like a long gun is nice. I've seen some pretty creative things done with folding-stock weapons and tennis racket bags.
3. DO NOT get something with oddball ammo. Your chances of needing resupply are pretty small (even in Katrina I doubt you could have shot yourself dry if you practiced any sort of ammo management/conservation and conflict avoidance), and your chances of getting resupply are even smaller, but if it came down to it, would you want to be scrounging for .308 or .300 Whisper?
4. Platform. No clear answer. .223 allows you to carry a lot of ammo. .308 allows you to carry less, but it can shoot through light cover and tends to inflict more debilitating wounds (though .223, especially in better loadings, does just fine). It's the oldest argument in the book. We've been doing it since the invention of the firearm, and no side has won yet. Reliability and durability are probably bigger issues.
Of those two in the OP? I'd pick an M14 clone. If I could add another, I'd take the FAL.
Mike
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Ash
Member
Yeah, that was tongue-in-cheek. It's a shame so many firearms rusted to death in New Orleans.
Ash
Ash
http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?version=35
9.3lbs w/empty mag.
VS.
http://www.raacfirearms.com/Saiga_308.htm
8.5lbs (But that might be the 22" w/wood weight. Trying to get a confirmation on actual weight of 16" synthetic Version)
In a SHTF situation, do you want a gun that can or cannot shoot any .308 ammo you find? If you come accross 1000rds of Wolf Steel-Case, are you confident the AR or M14 will function with it?
Remember, in a SHTF situation, you won't be able to pick and choose the ammo you scrounge. Some might be 50 years old and sketchy. If I had to use it, I'd feel more confident with the Saiga than the M14 or AR
9.3lbs w/empty mag.
VS.
http://www.raacfirearms.com/Saiga_308.htm
8.5lbs (But that might be the 22" w/wood weight. Trying to get a confirmation on actual weight of 16" synthetic Version)
In a SHTF situation, do you want a gun that can or cannot shoot any .308 ammo you find? If you come accross 1000rds of Wolf Steel-Case, are you confident the AR or M14 will function with it?
Remember, in a SHTF situation, you won't be able to pick and choose the ammo you scrounge. Some might be 50 years old and sketchy. If I had to use it, I'd feel more confident with the Saiga than the M14 or AR
Don357
Member
This at least is a more reliable platform than any AR. Seriously, it probably would also need less maintenance than an M1A/M14. But I would still reconsider the caliber. I love the .308/7.62x51 as much as the next guy, but I believe that 7.62x39 will be more plentiful for scrounging.
OK guys, as a combat vet, retired LE Officer and owner of 6 AR platform rifles including a Bushmaster BAR-10, an HK-91 and a Springfield M1-A I would consider the following.
1. In a combat situation the abilithy to shoot and move is critical!
2. 5.56 vs 7.62 you can carry many more rounds to continue the fight with the same weight.
3. Only hits count! With lighter recoil the 5.56 rifle can transit from target to target more quickly.
4. While the 7.62 round is indisputabely more effective, the 69/75 & 77 gr JHP rounds in the 5.56 will do the job with good shot
placement. A 1/7 or 1/8 rifiling twist rate will help in this regard.
5. While my HK-91, M1-A, and BAR-10are accuate, reliable and just a hoot to shoot - I shoot competitevly in major 3-gun matches. My Bushmaster AR is the one I would take in extrimis.
1. In a combat situation the abilithy to shoot and move is critical!
2. 5.56 vs 7.62 you can carry many more rounds to continue the fight with the same weight.
3. Only hits count! With lighter recoil the 5.56 rifle can transit from target to target more quickly.
4. While the 7.62 round is indisputabely more effective, the 69/75 & 77 gr JHP rounds in the 5.56 will do the job with good shot
placement. A 1/7 or 1/8 rifiling twist rate will help in this regard.
5. While my HK-91, M1-A, and BAR-10are accuate, reliable and just a hoot to shoot - I shoot competitevly in major 3-gun matches. My Bushmaster AR is the one I would take in extrimis.
Survival.....total? (against people and for food)
Just the two choices, I myself would grab the M14. It's battle "proven". While the AR platform is also battle proven, just not really in 7.62NATO.
Off-topic;
While I'm not really keen on the general "quality", for survival, I would not pass up an AK47 7.62x39 as practically an absolute first choice of survival weapon, if only one is you have opportunity to hold on to. Decent hunting round, ammunition world wide (well less so in the US).
I tend to think for a total survival arsenal;
Rifles: M24, AR15/M16, AK47, 10/22
Hanguns: 357mag wheel, 9mm, 40SW, 45ACP, .41/.44mag wheel
Knifes: 9" serrated fixed, 3"/4"/6" tactical serrated folders, Stainless Steel chef and boning knives
Just the two choices, I myself would grab the M14. It's battle "proven". While the AR platform is also battle proven, just not really in 7.62NATO.
Off-topic;
While I'm not really keen on the general "quality", for survival, I would not pass up an AK47 7.62x39 as practically an absolute first choice of survival weapon, if only one is you have opportunity to hold on to. Decent hunting round, ammunition world wide (well less so in the US).
I tend to think for a total survival arsenal;
Rifles: M24, AR15/M16, AK47, 10/22
Hanguns: 357mag wheel, 9mm, 40SW, 45ACP, .41/.44mag wheel
Knifes: 9" serrated fixed, 3"/4"/6" tactical serrated folders, Stainless Steel chef and boning knives
I came to that conclusion in my own collection not too long ago.
I've simplified to:
M4:5.56
LR-308: .308 Winchester
10/22: .22 long rifle
Remington 870: 12 gauge
Glock 19: 9mm
1911A1: .45ACP
I sort of wish that I kept my handguns in the same caliber, but they really do serve difference uses. My wife prefers the Glock, and on occassion, I find it easier to carry than the 1911A1. Even so, I choose to carry the .45ACP when I can.
For the 12 Gauge, I stock #6 Shot, 00 Buckshot, and Slugs.
All of my stockpile of ammuntion in rifle calibers are expanding point and/or heavy grain suitable for hunting.
There are a couple odd-ball calibers I may add to the collection if I ever get the urge and all my other bases are covered.
I have considered adding a 6.8 Remington SPC, a .300 Winchester Magnum, and a .17 HRM to the rifle mix, and I've considered adding a .357 Magnum Revolver to my handguns. I used to have a .357 and I still miss it. While I prefer semi-autos, there are times when a revolver is more flexible (shotshells for snakes, for instance.)
I'd rather have a few calibers with more interchange between firearms in common calibers than a number of calibers to stockpile.
However, one thing to remember-- While it is good to have a very common caliber for ease of procuring additional ammunition, don't count on being able to do so.
One of the first things that the Governments did during Katrina's aftermath was to suspend the sell of ammunition and firearms. I wanted to add a bit more to my stores, but there was NONE to be found anywhere.
If you don't already have the ammuntion in a SHTF, you aren't getting any.
-- John
MTMilitiaman
Member
It's not as popular as the competition, which isn't a major concern, except spare parts for .308 chambered AKs aren't as commonly available, nor are mags.
I don't know how easy they are to scope. Normal AKs aren't that difficult, but require either proprietary side rail mounts, or Ultimaks and similar mounts. Very few over-receiver mounts exist as compared to FALs, G3s, or even M1As. That could be a concern as well.
I don't know how easy they are to scope. Normal AKs aren't that difficult, but require either proprietary side rail mounts, or Ultimaks and similar mounts. Very few over-receiver mounts exist as compared to FALs, G3s, or even M1As. That could be a concern as well.
MTMilitiaman hit the high points.
Please understand that I am not disparaging the Saiga. I love them and consider them one of the best AK manufacturers out there.
And that in itself is one of its limitations-- and strengths. It's an AK.
As a strength, it will run. It will run all day, and will do so with reasonable accuracy. In fact, I was able to get 1.5 MOA groups at 100 yards with mine using quality factory loads.
As one limitation, I could not squeeze the accuracy that I wanted out of the platform.
As I searched for alternatives, I came to the decision that I would gain much better capability using an AR platform and opted for the LR-308.
My major issue with the Saiga (and any AK platform for that matter) is optics.
Mounting optics is possible, but not as easy as others. My most glaring complaint of it was that the optics are mounted off-set to the left side of the receiver. This makes it impossible to aim and fire left-handed. Because I am a hunter, I often had to take the shot left-handed and can do so as easily as I can right-handed. The Saiga and optics set-up made that impossible for me.
There may be other optics mounts that allow for the scope to sit directly over the bore, but I was not really in the mood to start buying more parts and being the test case.
I found that my Saiga would start stringing shots after a few shots. While this is no big deal for a hunter-- who makes one shot at a time-- I wanted more consistency. In defense, stringing can-- and will-- occur with practically any out of the box sporting rifle as well. Its just physics.
I should say this. The limitations are really more of limitations with ME than the platform. It couldn't meet my ideals and could not fit into the nuances of my uses.
Like other firearms I have owned, I found myself making allowances, seeking workable solutions, and modifying my behaviors. I don't want to have to do that.
I got ruined by the HK PSG1 back in the 80's. Oh, it didn't live up to its marketing, but I was intrigued with the idea of a highly accurate semi-auto. I had an HK-91 and began working to make a "clone." At the time, however, there just wasn't the aftermarket parts available. I had to have a lot of custom work done-- and that is hard to do for a High School kid. I ended up with a pretty decent and accurate rifle that I ended up selling like an idiot when I was in college.
Today, the AR platform has higher potential to meet the ideals that the HK PSG1 instilled in me. The vast amount of aftermarket parts, manufacturers, etc. have offered much more to the platform.
You see, an AK is a "built" firearm. You often have to work with what you have. As I view it, an AR is an "assembled" firearm. It's a true "Lego" gun. It is simply too easy to work it into what you want it to be.
Want a match trigger? Well, if you have a Saiga, you are practically out of luck. If you have an LR-308, order that Giselle DMR trigger, and you can install it while watching re-runs of the Sapranos.
Match barrel? Well, have fun on any AK. Pressing barrel pins is not a fun day. With the AR, you can do it with a vise, and a couple tools. Next thing you know, you have a Novoske barrel on that puppy.
Wanting to reach out long distance? This again points to optics. While you can get a weaver or picatinny base, it will take some doing to get something like a canted 22 MOA base on an AK. Its just a phone call to Badger Ordanace for the AR.
Do you see a pattern here? Yep. Its with me. For the uses that I have in .308 caliber, accuracy becomes my primary concern. There are simply better options in that area than a Saiga -- If you are interesting in reaching a high standard in semi-autos.
Again, I am not bashing Saigas. I'm not convinced that the HK platform or the FAL platform was as ideal for this goal, either. So its not in bad company.
The AK is a robust plaform, and the Saiga squeezes the absolute most potential out of its design. It, like all firearms, is not however a "One-Size-Fits-All firearm.
If you find yourself needing to make significant customizations to the firearm in order to meet your needs or expectations, the AK may not be your best choice.
If you are looking for a reasonably accurate MBR platform, the Saiga is the best bang for the buck, and I would consider it far more dependable than most others in the MBR class.
I hope that helps explain my statement. For many, the limitations I mentioned are not a consideration, so they should not be applied across the board.
-- John
W.E.G.
Member
If I had to lug it around all day, I think I would rather have either of these than a big ol' M14 or one of the AR-based .308 guns.
Neither one of these will shoot the whiskers off a gnat at 400 yards.
But, you wouldn't want to be 400 yards away from somebody shooting one of these either.
Neither one of these will shoot the whiskers off a gnat at 400 yards.
But, you wouldn't want to be 400 yards away from somebody shooting one of these either.
W.E.G.
Member
Yeah, I don't think the .223 caliber is a very good "battle cartridge."
But, if I got shot in the head with one, I might change my mind.
Old School
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Just out of curiosity I weighed my Winnie 1894. 6 1/2 pounds. It is also compact and obviously "lower profile" than my military style peices. I really think I might choose that over the others in a going mobile natural disaster scenario.
no_problem
Member
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((I be looking at a survival rifle, something that you'd grab if the world as we know it was ending and you could only take one gun with you.))
In tha case, it would be a choice between a Garand or an AK for the following reasons:
RELIABILITY: A proven track record that it can shoot thousands upon thousands of rounds (rapidly if necessary) without major parts failure
AMMO PERFORMANCE: Either the AK or the Garand shoots a 30 caliber, which is sufficient for this scenario. There are multiple target opportunities in this case from man size to maybe bigger four legged predators. I would not feel that a 22 cal round would be sufficient for either of these jobs.
In tha case, it would be a choice between a Garand or an AK for the following reasons:
RELIABILITY: A proven track record that it can shoot thousands upon thousands of rounds (rapidly if necessary) without major parts failure
AMMO PERFORMANCE: Either the AK or the Garand shoots a 30 caliber, which is sufficient for this scenario. There are multiple target opportunities in this case from man size to maybe bigger four legged predators. I would not feel that a 22 cal round would be sufficient for either of these jobs.
no_problem, I am a huge .30 cal admirer, but have you seen what a soft point .223 does to man and medium sized game?
Also given the fact that there are no dangerous animals except for the zoo around where I live. I think that the 5.56 platform would be a good choice. Backed up by my Enfield or Marlin lever guns.
But that negates the one gun for all doesn't it.
Also given the fact that there are no dangerous animals except for the zoo around where I live. I think that the 5.56 platform would be a good choice. Backed up by my Enfield or Marlin lever guns.
But that negates the one gun for all doesn't it.
WEG wrote:
Well, perhaps. I see it as good enough. I built mine with a 1:7 twist to stabalize heavier grain bullets in consideration of that.
But I do want to point out this. Nothing is perfect. And nothing absolutely sucks.
I left the AK platform and went to the AR platform for inhanced accuracy potential in both my .308 and 5.56/7.62x39 platforms.
Even with a lighter bullet, a well placed shot on game will make the kill. I figure a well placed lighter grain bullet is still preferable than a miss with a heavier grain bullet. In terms of game, I KNOW the limitations of the 5.56 and would operate within them.
My opinion was changed on the 5.56 after seeing some stellar results by some hunters around here using both .223 and 22-250 at acceptable ranges with proper aim.
As far as defense, I can only say this-- and I will not elaborate into the details. My experience with looters during Katrina was that it really didn't matter about the caliber. A looter isn't going to stop and ask you what caliber is getting shot at them. They will run like hell-- if you missed.
Even getting hit with a .22 rimfire will surely ruin your day.
Old School wrote:
Going mobile is the choice when I have absolutely no other choice. It will take quite a bit of natural disaster to get me uprooted. Katrina couldn't do it.
-- John
Well, perhaps. I see it as good enough. I built mine with a 1:7 twist to stabalize heavier grain bullets in consideration of that.
But I do want to point out this. Nothing is perfect. And nothing absolutely sucks.
I left the AK platform and went to the AR platform for inhanced accuracy potential in both my .308 and 5.56/7.62x39 platforms.
Even with a lighter bullet, a well placed shot on game will make the kill. I figure a well placed lighter grain bullet is still preferable than a miss with a heavier grain bullet. In terms of game, I KNOW the limitations of the 5.56 and would operate within them.
My opinion was changed on the 5.56 after seeing some stellar results by some hunters around here using both .223 and 22-250 at acceptable ranges with proper aim.
As far as defense, I can only say this-- and I will not elaborate into the details. My experience with looters during Katrina was that it really didn't matter about the caliber. A looter isn't going to stop and ask you what caliber is getting shot at them. They will run like hell-- if you missed.
Even getting hit with a .22 rimfire will surely ruin your day.
Old School wrote:
Going mobile is the choice when I have absolutely no other choice. It will take quite a bit of natural disaster to get me uprooted. Katrina couldn't do it.
-- John
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