308 Rifle Decision Assistance

[Sammenspiel]

I've narrowed it down to the DSA STG58 (21") vs. PTR91 GI

The following are things I've decided for myself..

Reasons to go for STG58:
-better fire selector position
-better mag release position
-last round hold open
-built in bipod
-ability to shut off gas tube (can you fire the weapon like this w/o damage?)

Reasons to go for PTR91 GI:
-better iron sights
-recoil operated, no dirty gas system
-not as expensive as STG58
-cheaper mags

Now things I'd like to know about them from anyone with experience:

-Range reports?

-I don't intend on buying **** surplus rounds, but will the GI function better with lower quality commercial ammo than the STG?

-Which is easier to disassemble? Uses less tools?

-About the STG... can you fire normal ammunition with the gas system closed off? I am aware that it was meant for firing blanks for rifle grenades, but since ammo is so damn expensive it'd be nice to be able to fire the rifle in a straight-pull bolt action sort of way.

Another thing you should know is that I'm a complete .308/7.62NATO noob so if im missing something feel free to call me an idiot and inform me, but I've figured they are more controllable than the recoil on my 91/30 or my friend's 8mm Mauser.

 

[sarduy]

welcome to THR

i much as i would like to help i dont have experiense with neither of them, but here're good revires on both of them

STG 58
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrrGQgs3xpQ part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjDIWfagQMw part 2


PTR 91
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeRWBdOjvbY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IY1qbirq7c0

 

[TexasRifleman]

In my opinion, and I own both, you can't go wrong with either, but they are very different rifles for sure.

The biggest difference that I notice are the ergonomics. They just feel drastically different at the range. I prefer the FAL by the slightest little bit, but i like the sights on the HK better, from the shooting aspect.

The bipod on the FAL is useless, as are most barrel mounted bipods in my opinion. The pressure exerted on the barrel can throw off accuracy.

The HK/PTR does a little more damage to brass so if you reload you need to be aware of that, or get a port buffer.

You can shoot the FAL with the gas bypassed if you want to, yes. I am never sure if you call that "on" or "off". You just set it so that it all vents to atmosphere instead of to the piston. I'd call it wide open, not off, but I don't know what is proper.

Both have eaten every kind of ammo I've used from Wolf to MEN, DAG, South African, Portugese, Federal cheap ball .308, my reloads, Lithuanian surplus, and the Prvi Partisan stuff in the white boxes and clear battle packs, not sure what it's called off the top of my head. I even fired some old Pakistani (non corrosive) I got a good deal on.

I haven't noticed any difference in reliability regardless of the ammo.

You do need to be aware of the bolt gap issues with an HK and know how to check it.

Putting optics on either of them is a royal pain, but much more doable with the PTR.

If I were really forced to choose I'd give the edge to the PTR by just the slightest margin.

Cheaper mags, more reliable action, slightly more accurate (mine anyway) and the ability to mount optics a little easier.

The FAL is better looking and has a more interesting history.

Good luck, it's a hard choice, I couldn't decide and wound up with both.

 

[Bwana John]

I went with a Para FAL, and a M1A.

If I could get a HK51 for the right price Id probably go for it

 

[451 Detonics]

I own a CETME and a FAL...as was stated above they are different rifles. If at all possible try to fire both and see which you prefer personally. For me I shoot the FAL with the iron sights best but prefer the CETME set up with optics.

 

[303tom]

I've narrowed it down to the DSA STG58 (21") vs. PTR91 GI

The following are things I've decided for myself..

Reasons to go for STG58:
-better fire selector position
-better mag release position
-last round hold open
-built in bipod
-ability to shut off gas tube (can you fire the weapon like this w/o damage?)

Reasons to go for PTR91 GI:
-better iron sights
-recoil operated, no dirty gas system
-not as expensive as STG58
-cheaper mags

Now things I'd like to know about them from anyone with experience:

-Range reports?

-I don't intend on buying **** surplus rounds, but will the GI function better with lower quality commercial ammo than the STG?

-Which is easier to disassemble? Uses less tools?

-About the STG... can you fire normal ammunition with the gas system closed off? I am aware that it was meant for firing blanks for rifle grenades, but since ammo is so damn expensive it'd be nice to be able to fire the rifle in a straight-pull bolt action sort of way.

Another thing you should know is that I'm a complete .308/7.62NATO noob so if im missing something feel free to call me an idiot and inform me, but I've figured they are more controllable than the recoil on my 91/30 or my friend's 8mm Mauser.

Maybe you should start with one of these !

 

[MistWolf]

The gas system of the FAL can be cut off. The gas plug has a grenade position which closes off the gas from the system.

Of the two, I'd suggest the FAL. The HK and it's clones are very teutonic in nature and has a few odd quirks. The M14 is a Rifleman's Rifle. The FAL is an Everyman's Rifle. Once a FAL is set up correctly, it will run forever. Don't worry about the bipod and the carry handle. Shoot your FAL enough and you'll know what to do with the kickstand and the purse handle.
View attachment 566154

Might as well buy the Para FAL first and get it out of your system
View attachment 566155
View attachment 566156

I give this advice knowing it will be but your first 308 battlerifle. You are warned

 

[USSR]

Putting optics on either of them is a royal pain, but much more doable with the PTR.

Not at all. Putting optics on the FAL is a piece of cake.

Don

 

[W.E.G.]

You won't find many people who love the FAL more than me.
The FAL is a true classic.
Kind of like a 1968 Mustang.
Who wouldn't want one?!!!

But the Stoner design is a lot more accuracy in a semi-auto for the $$$.

It doesn't have to be a big bulky affair either.

 

[henschman]

I would go for the Imbel FAL from DSA over their STG-58 or DSA-58: http://www.dsarms.com/Imbel-FAL-Sta...l-Imbel-Barrel---IMBEL58/productinfo/IMBEL58/

They actually have chrome lined barrels, which is part of the mil spec on these rifles, but which the PTRs and other DSA's don't come with. A CL barrel will last a lot longer, cycle more reliably, resist corrosion better, and clean easier than a regular chrome moly barrel.

Also, in my opinion, the FAL actually has better iron sights than the G3. They don't require special tools to adjust like the HK, the BDC goes out to a longer range, and they don't have that annoying diopter system that can only have 4 ranges and has the big fat notch for 100m shooting. FALs are also a lot easier to mount optics on. HK's require an annoying claw mount that costs a lot and tends to come loose (at least in my experience). With the FAL, you just buy the railed dust cover. You can get the optic lower over the bore with the FAL, too... which is nice because it doesn't require a big built-up cheek pad for proper cheek weld.

You can argue that the G3 is more reliable than the FAL, but if it is, it isn't by much... both are some of the most reliable rifles ever designed. It is true that mags are currently cheaper and more plentiful for the G3, though.

Overall, I'd go with a good FAL over the G3 any day. And that's coming from a guy with a lot of experience with HK type rifles.

 

[303tom]

How about one of these ?

 

[Sammenspiel]

Thanks for your input so far, really good advice. However I still am having trouble deciding (big surprise, two really sexy rifles ) but I'm slightly leaning towards the PTR 91. Although I just emailed PTR 91 inc. and asked if they offer the GI with a welded compensator because I think I failed to mention that I live in good old NY where the laws are oh so (enter bad word(s) here).. anywho I was told that CDNN sports is the exclusive dealer and that they don't do stuff like that so I was wondering if I have to get it shipped to a gunsmith first and then pick it up or if I can just bring it to one in person? Also how much would it cost to have the muzzle device welded in place? This is my first rifle that I'll probably have to get online so forgive my newbness.

 

[mortablunt]

I have a preference for FAL sights and feel. However, the only 7.62 NATO gun I've ever had is a G3 clone. Get what you want.

 

[BloodyCactus]

You need to be aware that the PTR has a short list of accepted ammo that it will eat while the fal will eat anything. a LOT of posts around the net on ptr91 and its finicky ammo issues.

 

[jrdale84]

Another great reason to sway you towards FAL here - with DSA you get service. I ended up with a DSA SA58 w/ Imbel barrel (honestly don't know how that happened, but best of both worlds!) but my receiver was slightly crooked. A quick call to DSA and bam - "send us the rifle, we'll take a look, make any repairs no cost, send the shipping receipt too we'll pay that".

I've never been so impressed with a company, especially considering I store bought it. They make it, they protect it. With rifles like these its a good thing.

On top of that, yea, scope mounting is very easy with the FAL, I've never owned a rifle so easy to clean and its a beast that I love.

 

[451 Detonics]

Both are easy to scope however with the CETME platform you have the advantage of a very well made and repeatable QD mount. The downside of that mount is it just about requires a cheek piece the obtain a proper cheek weld. HK does make low mounts but they are not QD. I also had to add a buttstock extension to mine to get proper eye relief. This is pretty much a dedicated optics rifle now.



Depending on the stock you go with on the FAL you can use a low mount QD mount and still be able to access the iron sights. My FAL shoots so well with the irons tho I have decided to leave optics off it all together.



Both can have great triggers but in them with the CETME platform having the advantage of being able to be set up with a superlative set trigger. Williams Trigger Specialties does a great trigger on both but the set trigger makes the CETME platform a very nice long range DM rifle.

Again I would say handle both...shoot if possible before deciding.

 

[Frankl03]

I have owned both a FAL and a PTR 91. I lean more towards the PTR 91. The GI model you mentioned should shoot anything 308/7.62 Nato. In my experience the PTR 91 was a little more accurate.

I assume you have handled both at this point. If you choose the PTR 91 I would get the port buffer as well. I would also plan on a trigger job on the PTR 91. Bill Springfield does them.

Hope that helps!

 

[VFR]

I owned an FN made FAL 20 years ago and found it to be an excellent rifle. A month ago I was parusing the CDNN catalogue and purchased the PTR 91GI on a whim. Other than my big game rifles built on Mauser actions, I have no other military rifles. Before taking the PTR to the range, I checked the bolt gap at .017. After 60 rnds of some 73/74 Chilean and 100 rnds of S&B I can report zero FTFs or FTEs. The Chilean gave poor accuracy, 10in off the bench at 100m. The S&B, however, put them all in 2in. The 2,3,400m apatures on the rear sight are easy to use. The 100m is a V. I rechecked the bolt gap before cleaning and it is still .017. I believe the PTR 91GI is good value for the $. I kinda have the fever for this type of rifle now and my next purchase will be a Rock River AR10, or what ever they are called. As a collector and shooter of custom big bore rifles and SxS shotguns, this PTR looks very much out of place in my safe. Thanks for the great web site Bob

 

[bigedp51]

303tom

Your ishapore 2a1 7.62 photos are not funny, the OP is looking for a rifle with the ability to lay down suppressive/covering fire. You need to show a little more imagination and try not to be so funny.
My 2A1 is water cooled, when the wood starts to smoke I pour water on the fore stock.

 

[AK_Maine_iac]

Armalite AR-10A4 RIFLE 7.62 W FORWARD ASSIST GREEN

This is what i ended up with. Plus i built a 338 Federal upper for it.

 

[VFR]

You need to be aware that the PTR has a short list of accepted ammo that it will eat while the fal will eat anything. a LOT of posts around the net on ptr91 and its finicky ammo issues.

I have yet to find any ammo surplus ammo that the PTR 91GI will not digest.
Chilean, Brazilian, East European, German. Just ordered two cans of Radway Green.

 

[RangerHAAF]

Is accuracy really important as a consideration? Because if it is there are other rifle models like the AR-10 that are more accurate but a little pricier. I have owned a DSA-58 and found it very lacking in accuracy, it's a good solid shooting gun but not if you're concerned about MOA and tight shot groups.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Can't really go wrong with either.

I have a Cetme, but knowing what I know today, I'd go with an FAL patter rifle if I were shopping right now; I reload, and the fluted chamber of the G3 pattern destroys brass. Other than that, though, I like the thing. It's heavy, kind of awkward, kicks a good bit and the trigger is so-so, but I got one of the good ones, and it produces some pretty amazing groups with ball ammo. I have a B-square mount and a Simmons ATV 4.5-14x 40mm on it.

However, the AR-10 is a superior rifle to both of these. Lighter, more accurate, more ergonomic, and modular. The only downside is magazine cost. Still, if I had to choose between my CETME and my Armalite AR-10 carbine, it's a no brainer.

 

[M1key]

I have owned multiples of both, including HK-91 and Cetme. Currently own only FALs (four).

My HK91 once shot 8 rounds of badly reloaded ammo into 7/8 inch in the middle of the X-ring at 175 paces using only iron sights and fired off the top of my Honda Civic. This was back in the early 80's and yes, it was witnessed by a friend who also owned one.

I have since developed the need for prescription glasses (20/200) and doubt I could ever dupilcate that feat today.

After much deliberation, I decided to sell it, since I already had a Belgium G-series FN-FAL (with issue Hensoldt-Wetzler scope) and no way the HK could match the quality, handling, and shootability of the FAL. Accuracy? YES, but I could not get over the fact that the HK handled like a giant sausage compared to the FAL.

Also I discovered that after several disassemblies/reassemblies for cleaning, the components got gradually looser...receiver, buttstock, and trigger/grip assembly developed an annoying "flex".

After trying one on another rifle, I don't know what the Germans were thinking about when they designed that awful retracting buttstock....

That bolt assy is a real bugger to install in the receiver unless you have figured out to pull the bolt forward slightly to retract the rollers. I spent the better part of an afternoon before I figured that one out.

Years later, I encountered a fellow who claimed to be an armorer for the Contras in jungles of Central America. His main complaint was the lack of any field maintenance by the troops which caused the bolts to lock up tight when the rollers rusted shut. He had to pound the bolts loose and soak them in penetrating oil to get them loose. The rollers need to be kept clean and oiled to work properly

He also found out that if the HK is dropped so that the top of the receiver gets bent, it will bind up the charging handle, rendering the rifle useless.

All this considered, the HK is a good rifle but too many shortcomings to compare favorably with the FAL, IMO.

Good luck.

M

 

[coosbaycreep]

I looked at all the common semi-auto .308s and ended up going with a PTR-91. If I could have all the money back I've spent on it, I would have either went with an M1A if I was going to just use iron sights, or an AR10/DPMS if I planned on using a scope.

here's my PTR:


The cheek piece made a huge difference in how comfortable it is to shoot, but only if you have a scope on it. My trigger pack is at Bill Springfield at the moment, and I plan on eventually get a few other things like a brake and heavy buffer to help reduce the recoil (these things KICK for a .308).

Some of them will eat any ammo, some of them won't though. Supposedly it's from improperly cut flutes. PTR's website also says that a few rifles they sold have trunnion issues too.

I'm unlucky enough to have one of the guns that won't eat south african surplus (becomes a single shot), but it's been 100% with reloads and commercial ammo.

Bolt disassembly is a PITA on the PTR.

The surplus scope/mount is kinda cool, and hasn't lost zero after being removed/installed several times. It didn't need sighted in when I first got it either.

You really need to handle these guns first before you buy. I have no experience with the FAL, but the PTR is one of the most awkward guns I've ever shot. It's an accurate, reliable, well made gun, and I intend to keep it and continue to waste money on it even though I spend more time complaining about it than I do shooting it, but I think the M1A and AR style rifles are superior.