308 Win loading question

[CMV]

Couple of questions about 2 loads I'm working up. First I'm using new production LC brass. Midway had a pretty good deal on pulldown primed brass that was a lot cheaper than I could find 1x 308 brass anywhere. So I'm using that & just lightly running my sizing die in to true up the case mouth/neck. Pretty much to where I feel the decapping pin contact the primer. I'm getting about 1:30 fail to fire & think I must be damaging the primers doing this? Never messed with primed brass before - already have it fully processed to where it needs to be before I prime it. Also measuring & setting aside anything under length. Anyway, I think I should just run that up a little so the decapping pin can't touch the primer & then just take a full stroke like I was FL sizing the brass. But don't know if raising that much means I won't be sizing the neck/mouth properly. Is that what I should do or continue just lightly taking a partial stroke being more careful not to contact the primer?

Here's my bigger question though. I'm loading 165gr Hornady SST SP BT and 125 GR Speer TNT HP. Both in that primed LC brass, both with IMR 4895, both worked up & within a few tenths of published max loads.

Problem is POI is different. About a 6" elevation change @ 100 yds. Both will group well (after an insane amount of effort fixing other problems with rifle...), just too drastic a difference in POI switching between them. The 165 would be for larger critter, the 125 for smaller. So I'm guessing I need to slow one down a bit but not sure which one or what getting their POI @ 100 yds means at other ranges. As both loads are today, If I zero for the 165 gr load, the 125gr will be about 6" low & 1" left.

To add further complexity I'm making a stainless muzzle brake that will no doubt further change POI for both once installed. So getting them to match today just to have that change in a few days is pointless so will see where they both print after that is added. But once that is installed and assuming they both still have noticeably different POI what I need to know is:

(1) What is right way to get MV's for each where they need to be to hit at roughly same spot? Assuming I'd want the larger critter load at higher MV and then slow down the varmint load - a little slower .308 is probably still overkill on a ~40lbs coyote or similar?

(2) How do I figure out what that means for where each hits at different distances if they do hit at same spot at 100 yds (or 200 or 300 - my range goes 50 - 300 yds so anything in between there). Is there free/cheap ballistics software that will tell me this or do I just need to do trial & error to get them the same at X yds & then note what they do at other distances?

I'm not a hunter. Rifle & ammo is for a hunter. So a lot of things I just don't know that are specifically related to hunting vs general target/precision shooting. Does it make sense to even have 2 separate loads for ~140 lbs deer and then smaller critters like coyotes, hogs, bobcats, coons, etc? What would be the appropriate range to zero a .308 for hunting? I'm using 100 yds right now just for convenience, but if some other range is typically where you'd make a shot at various critters, I should probably zero for that.

Also to note - first time using IMR 4895. So far I really like how my Hornady dispensing scale handles it. This is also my first time dealing with compressed loads. The 125 load isn't at published max but I don't think I can speed it up any. The case is absolutely full & I'm assuming that's due to a little less volume due to military brass. Notebook is at home but I want to say right around 46-47gr, 2.800" COAL. I have to tap the powder funnel to settle the charge when filling case just to get that much in & not spill a little.

As usual, thanks for the help with my dumb questions

 

[Kingcreek]

Whoa! That's a lot of question but first, reduce powder for LC 7.62 brass. It's thicker meaning reduced case capacity and risk of over pressure using book loads.
Remove your depriming pin and just neck size the primed brass and you'll be fine.
I've loaded thousands with 4895 and usually 39-40gr, never more than 42.

 

[jmr40]

My guess is that you are pushing the primer partially out. If the primers aren't seated fully you'll get misfires. You probably don't need to size the neck. If the brass is primed they should be ready to load. If you feel the need remove the decapping pin.

LC brass tends to be thicker resulting in less powder capacity. That doesn't mean it will give less velocity, it means you need less powder to get the same velocity. You will usually reach a max load using that brass at a lower charge weight than listed in the manual. If you're less than 1 gr below published max, you may well be over a max charge using that brass. This is why I like a chronograph. My load manuals say 45.5 gr 4895 is a max load @ 2745 fps with 165 gr bullets. The 2745 fps is your max load. You may reach that speed with 44 gr of powder. Adding any more powder is an overload even though the manual says 45.5. I suspect this may be part of your problem. With another brand of brass 45.5 may be the max load.

You're not going to get the 125's and 165's to group together. Don't bother trying.

I zero all rifles and loads at 100 yards. I calculate the drop at longer ranges and use a BDC scope or one with dials.

Bullet weigh matters little, bullet construction does. I'd settle on one bullet weight and choose a tougher bullet for larger tougher game and a more fragile bullet in the same weight for more explosive expansion on smaller game. The 165 gr SST's are known as a soft, rapidly expanding bullet. Maybe more so than the lighter 125 gr bullet. You can get 150 gr Barnes TTSX's that will shoot through a moose from front to back when fired from a 308. A 150 gr SST or Nolser Ballistic Tip will expand rapidly and work on smaller game while shooting to the same speed and point of impact. Something like a Partition or Accubond would split the difference.

 

[CMV]

I don't need that ball on the decapping pin (Lee die if that matters) to make the mouth round? Most cases are fine the way they are, but some are visibly out-of-round. Seating the bullet may very well just fix that on its own. It's new brass, but pulldown so I'm guessing some of the mouths were a bit deformed from the deconstruction process. That or just from handling.

I started low & worked up to where I am now. Have not put them over the chrony & probably should. Have not seen any signs of over pressure with either though.

I've loaded thousands with 4895 and usually 39-40gr, never more than 42.
Is that even with lighter bullets like 125gr? Not at home with my books & notes, but that sounds like it's under starting charge for a 125gr? I have no problem loading them lighter - my shoulder would be grateful since I'm not used to shooting this much .308 over & over.

You're not going to get the 125's and 165's to group together. Don't bother trying.
If it is futile to try to get 2 flavors of .308 real close together on paper then it sounds like I need some type of utility load that is acceptable for all creatures. Is that reasonable? Anything wrong/inhumane/stupid about going after deer with a 125gr TNT or a groundhog with a 165gr SST? Like I said before, not a hunter. There are about as many different 30 cal projectiles out there as there are stars in the sky I would assume anything good to drop a deer will also drop anything smaller just fine. Dead is dead. Is the issue that the deer-appropriate bullet is more likely to just poke a hole and pass straight thru something a lot smaller like a coyote? Something like a varmint bullet fragment & make a mess trying to separate from or ruin meat in a deer? If there is a projectile suitable for both larger & smaller creatures I'm not opposed to changing - just don't know what that would be. Maybe not the absolute best for a varmint AND absolute best for a deer, but not a poor choice for either?

Also - I called out wrong bullet for 165gr. I'm using a 165 gr Hornady interlock - not SST. This is a soft point, boat tail bullet, with cannelure. Not the SST with red tip. Getting projectiles mixed up in my head since I have so many different kinds of Hornady bullets on the shelf Hornady #3045

 

[someguy2800]

They mean to just take off the actual pin off, not take out the whole stem. You will need the expander or you won't be able to seat a bullet afterwards. Any deer bullet will do just fine on smaller animals, it just won't be quite as spectacular as a varmint bullet

 

[CMV]

Didn't realize that came off - just assumed it was all one piece. I'm going to feel really dumb if I could have just unscrewed it....

 

[Reloadron]

Didn't realize that came off - just assumed it was all one piece. I'm going to feel really dumb if I could have just unscrewed it....

You mentioned a Lee die, the decapping pin doesn't get removed:

The expander and decapping pin are one machined part. The RCBS die on the left has a removable decapping pin, the Lee does not. I have a Lee .308 Winchester die sitting here.

Ron

 

[Ironicaintit]

you could always back the expander out a ways, so it wont reach the primer, but be below the level of the neck sizing portion of your die. or get another expander and clip the pin off of it.

not one to pick nits, but that is a lot of powder! 47 gr of 4895 is what I use for a 167gr (sierra) boattail in 30-06.
the same bullet in 308 is 43gr with LC brass.
those are both auto loader loads too, though.

 

[Reloadron]

The problem you have is the case needs to run way up in the die so the neck can be squeezed undersized. Then as the case comes down the expander open the case mouth to size. A die with a removable decapping pin would allow this easily with the Lee die I would try it as suggested:

you could always back the expander out a ways, so it wont reach the primer, but be below the level of the neck sizing portion of your die. or get another expander and clip the pin off of it.

Also, as to the case volume where we have GI Brass versus Commercial Brass in most cases there really isn't all that much difference to be concerned with. I just recently did the little science experiment:

Take a look at the actual case volumes. The brass was all sized and trimmed using the same die and sized the same. The actual case volumes expressed in cc is really the bottom line. While in this case the LC 13 brass did have the lower volume how much would it matter? The brass I used has been primed and as nice weather finally has began to show up I will finish loading it and we will see how identical loads perform. Anyway the point here is how much will it matter as to case volume?

Ron

 

[Gtscotty]

you could always back the expander out a ways, so it wont reach the primer, but be below the level of the neck sizing portion of your die.

This is what I'd try, you should be able to loosen the nut at the top, back the expander stem out a bit and re-tighten. You're going to need to resize the necks of pulled cases.

As for bullet selection, I'd just pick one that shoots well in the 150gr to 165gr range that is tough enough for deer and then use it for everything. I've used 165gr SST's out of an '06 on deer and found them to be a bit soft, but 150 to 200 fps slower out of a .308 they'd probably work well. Gamekings, either 150's or 165's are good deer bullets that can usually be counted on to shoot well in any half decent rifle.

 

[CMV]

Mine looks like this:

Checked notebook. 47.0gr for 125gr bullet, 43.0gr for 165gr bullet.

Using this data. I'm under starting load according to it. For a Sierra Spitzer but the TNT is only .040" longer so should be pretty similar. And I'm loading .100" longer. At max in Lyman 49 for '125gr SP' but again a lot longer. Under in Hornady 8th for 130gr data - they don't list 125gr even though they sure make a bunch

Same for the 165gr - I'm under max & loaded longer. Hodgdon, Lyman, & Hornady all under max.

Not trying to be argumentative - just wondering if I'm doing something way wrong. All the references I'm using are telling me I'm in the range I should be for these 2 projectiles, but some seem alarmed by the charge weight.

So it sounds like one 'general purpose' bullet is way to go? I have these to choose among - most are for 300BLK target purposes & I'm sure are unsuitable. But I have all these on hand. No big deal to order something else. I'd rather not use something like 75¢ ea Barnes TTSX unless necessary - if a GameKing, Power-point, Interlock, etc for a quarter each is good.

110 Hornady VMax
110 Hornady SP
125 Hornady SST
125 Speer TNT
125 Sierra Matchking
165 Hornady BTSP
208 Hornady AMax
220 Sierra Matchking
245 gr MBC

The 165gr Interlock SP is probably the only/most suitable for deer? If something else is much better suited for the smaller critters but still good for deer (TN deer, not like the larger ones in the Midwest), point me in right direction please.

150gr Sierra Gameking spitzer?
150gr Hornady SST?
155gr A-Max?

I know nothing about these black Nosler's but they sure look cool!

 

[CMV]

A new decapper/expander is a whopping $4 from midway. Current one will get snipped

Don't know if they still have it but the .308 LC pulldown primed brass was on sale $50 for a box of 250. All LC13 & 14 HS.

Other than a small amount of case mouths visibly out-of round & a lot of case length variation don't see anything wrong with it.

 

[Orcon]

I use the 168gr A-Max as a my general purpose bullet. Paper, steel, prairie-dogs, coyotes, deer-sized critters, they work quite well out to 600 yards or so.

 

[Walkalong]

I have these to choose among -

110 Hornady VMax
110 Hornady SP
125 Hornady SST
125 Speer TNT
125 Sierra Matchking
165 Hornady BTSP
208 Hornady AMax
220 Sierra Matchking
245 gr MBC

The 165 Hornady BTSP will work just fine for deer.

 

[Ironicaintit]

Mine looks like this:

Checked notebook. 47.0gr for 125gr bullet, 43.0gr for 165gr bullet


Not trying to be argumentative - just wondering if I'm doing something way wrong. All the references I'm using are telling me I'm in the range I should be for these 2 projectiles, but some seem alarmed by the charge weight.

I thought those loads may be on the ragged edge of sanity, but I thought your 47 grains was what you were running in your 165gr load.
but your 43 gr driving a 165 is my same load.......

I'm actually having a shred of doubt about my memory....will check my books this evening.

So it sounds like one 'general purpose' bullet is way to go? I have these to choose among - most are for 300BLK target purposes & I'm sure are unsuitable. But I have all these on hand. No big deal to order something else. I'd rather not use something like 75¢ ea Barnes TTSX unless necessary - if a GameKing, Power-point, Interlock, etc for a quarter each is good.

110 Hornady VMax
110 Hornady SP
125 Hornady SST
125 Speer TNT
125 Sierra Matchking
165 Hornady BTSP
208 Hornady AMax
220 Sierra Matchking
245 gr MBC

The 165gr Interlock SP is probably the only/most suitable for deer? If something else is much better suited for the smaller critters but still good for deer (TN deer, not like the larger ones in the Midwest), point me in right direction please.

150gr Sierra Gameking spitzer?
150gr Hornady SST?
155gr A-Max?

for no real discernable reason, I'm partial to Sierras, regardless of size or type.

 

[Kingcreek]

I read your original post with 46-47g under the both bullets, which alarmed me greatly. that and you mentioned it FILLED the case.
if you're at 43g and you approached it cautiously, I am less concerned but you are still at upper limit in my experience. All my LC 7.62 brass ('64 and '77) is older and 42 is MY limit in MY rifles for 165/168 bullets with 4895. My M1a SuperMatch shot 5/8" 5 shot groups all day with 39.2g of 4895.
I have significant differences in case capacity between MY LC brass and commercial brass and have adjusted and worked up my loads according to my comfort limits.
BTW, I currently have a Tikka T3 that puts 125gr Sierra and 165 Noslers into the same group at 100 yards but it is convenient coincidence, not deliberate load development that got there. I don't expect they will be anywhere close to each other at 300 yards.