.308 win sizing problem

[rcmodel]

I have a friend who owns more rifles then the Remington factory.

Every time he buys a new one in a new caliber, I get the same phone call about his reloads won't chamber.

Every single time, I tell him to screw the dang sizing die down until it touches the shell holder, then screw it down some more until the press "bumps" over at full ram extension to take up the linkage slack and press frame flex.

And guess what?
Every time I tell him, it fixes his chambering problem, again.

rc

 

[Innovative]

rcmodel ......

There's a little more to it than you think. Sometimes you need to raise the die to keep from buckleing the case or increasing chamber clearance. If it only bulges your case by .001" too much, that case also may fail to chamber. This is especially true with belted magnum calibers, because factory ammo headspaces on the belt, and handloads should always headspace on the shoulder.

Walkalong ........

Sometimes reading the directions alone is not enough. The guy that writes instructions is making them for a wide range of shooters, and he has no idea how much reloading experience you have - or not. Instructions can't be too long, or nobody will read them. Leaving out important information is also a bad deal. When you see shooters that have handloads that don't fit . . . . . it would help solve their problem to use the right equipment to take accurate measurements.

EXAMPLE: Carpenters build houses every day. Those that know how to measure accurately will make better homes. Those that never take measurements will eventually run into all kinds of problems. It's that simple.

- Innovative

 

[rcmodel]

rcmodel ......There's a little more to it than you think.

Oh, I think I know about resizing after doing it for almost 50 years.

Yes, you can create excess headspace in certain circumstances with an out of spec rifle, die, or shell holder.
No, you can't normally buckle a case when resizing it. All you can do is reform the shoulder further back then it should be for proper headspace.

But, the OP's cases wouldn't fit back in his rifle, and that is almost always a case of improperly adjusting the sizing die down far enough to get all the press flex out.

rc

 

[USSR]

...the OP's cases wouldn't fit back in his rifle, and that is almost always a case of improperly adjusting the sizing die down far enough to get all the press flex out.

Only 99.9% of the time.

Don

 

[Innovative]

rcmodel .....

In most situations I would agree with you. But remember that .001" added to the case diameter is a very small amount, and it can be enough to make handloads fit very tight. This is very common with belted cases.

- Innovative

 

[Walkalong]

Walkalong ........

Sometimes reading the directions alone is not enough. The guy that writes instructions is making them for a wide range of shooters, and he has no idea how much reloading experience you have

They should be written for beginers with it being assumed they know nothing, and most manuals are. The others usually have something to let consumers know that they are not for the beginner reloader.

Yes, you can create excess headspace in certain circumstances with an out of spec rifle, die, or shell holder.
No, you can't normally buckle a case when resizing it. All you can do is reform the shoulder further back then it should be for proper headspace.

Yep.......

But remember that .001" added to the case diameter is a very small amount, and it can be enough to make handloads fit very tight

But oversizing doesn't cause that.

And you may want to remember that you are not talking to beginners.

You do make some cool reloading goodies.

 

[Innovative]

Walkalong .......

Almost everyone on this forum is experienced at reloading. Some shooters (like you and I) just happen to have been reloading since the 1960s. When I first describe a brand new product (to somebody that has never seen it), it usually starts with strangers trying to explain how something used-to-be done. I know that many of them are very experienced, but it takes time to discover who they are. It also takes time to explain something that is truely unique, and what makes a new product perform better.

I try to play it safe by rarely even making a joke, because someone out there might take something the wrong way. Eventually I'll get the word out, and the most critical shooters out there often become my best customers. Their input helps me understand even more of the "other" ways of doing things. This has helped me learn about other techniques or new reloading tools that still can be developed. That's what I do for a living. With the help of jillions of shooters, I design new reloading and shooting products.

- Innovative

 

[NCsmitty]

I fire a round and it will rechamber easily. Once I full length size it in my hornady dies, it is hard to close the bolt on the round. Jeffery8mm

I'm always open to learning new ways and to new ideas, even at the tender age of 64, but the OP's problem was obvious in his first statement. The withdrawal of the expander button was stretching the shoulder out of spec because the die was not setting the shoulder back enough to compensate.
As USSR noted, that problem can be circumvented 99.9% of the time by proper die positioning.

I know that many of them are very experienced, but it takes time to discover who they are.

I think I know who I am, I'm just hoping that I won't forget who I was.


NCsmitty

 

[counterclockwise]

Jeff,

The reason Hornady guy said check the expander ball, is that the ONLY THING that could make the case (that fits well after fire forming) grow longer during sizing to the point of interfering with bolt closure is that the expander ball drags on the neck on the way out and stretches the shoulder out or stretches the case out just behind the shoulder.

You should be able to polish the expander ball with some crocus cloth or light grinding compound. Then, redouble efforts to assure that the INSIDE OF THE CASE NECKS ARE LUBRICATED well before running through the full sizer die.

Another way to isolate the problem and verify the Hornady diagnosis is to take the decapping/expander stem out of the die. Resize the fire-formed case and see if it still chambers and allows bolt closure easily. If it does, then Hornady hunch is correct.

The rifle cases of the completed reload round need some "rattle space" in the chamber after the bolt is closed. To enhance case life (number of reloads before structural failure) reloaders try to limit cold working of resized cases by keeping the "rattle space" to just a few thousandths.

 

[snuffy]

The reason Hornady guy said check the expander ball, is that the ONLY THING that could make the case (that fits well after fire forming) grow longer during sizing to the point of interfering with bolt closure is that the expander ball drags on the neck on the way out and stretches the shoulder out or stretches the case out just behind the shoulder.

I've seen this answer so much here and on other forums, but, I don't buy it! In order to pull the neck AND shoulder forward enough to cause hard chambering, the expander ball would have to be damn near GLUED to the case! I used to pull the expander through .243 cases with a loud squeak , without doing a darn thing to the shoulder. They chambered with no resistance. I now use a spray lube, making sure some gets in the necks. I used to simply touch each case mouth to my lube pad, to transfer a bit of the lube to the expander ball.

I'm always open to learning new ways and to new ideas, even at the tender age of 64, but the OP's problem was obvious in his first statement. The withdrawal of the expander button was stretching the shoulder out of spec because the die was not setting the shoulder back enough to compensate.

I guess if enough people repeat something, it becomes fact?

What 8mm's problem is, as RC said, he needs to lower the die further so it full length sizes completely. Few know that in the last few thousandths of ram travel, the brass is being forced forward by the die re sizing the front of the case,(the body). This makes the shoulder move forward. If the die is NOT far enough down, the shoulder STAYS forward, causing hard chambering.

 

[counterclockwise]

What 8mm's problem is, as RC said, he needs to lower the die further so it full length sizes completely. Few know that in the last few thousandths of ram travel, the brass is being forced forward by the die re sizing the front of the case,(the body). This makes the shoulder move forward. If the die is NOT far enough down, the shoulder STAYS forward, causing hard chambering

The OP said the fire formed case chambers OK. The resized case interferes with bolt closure.

Your solution, while good and often applicable, does not fit the problem as expressed by the OP. So, just do this to see if Hornady's suggestion is valid:

Another way to isolate the problem and verify the Hornady diagnosis is to take the decapping/expander stem out of the die. Resize the fire-formed case and see if it still chambers and allows bolt closure easily. If it does, then Hornady hunch is correct, if not, then the problem is elsewhere. Of course, this assumes that the decapper/expander stem is removable from the die.

 

[snuffy]

The OP said the fire formed case chambers OK. The resized case interferes with bolt closure.

Your solution, while good and often applicable, does not fit the problem as expressed by the OP. So, just do this to see if Hornady's suggestion is valid:

Yes, I agree, it would prove it,(Hornady's guess). Then when the bolt still closes with difficulty, then maybe he'll do what we've been telling him all along, turn the die down further!

 

[counterclockwise]

Note: The only other explanation that I can think of is that the OP has a chamber that is oversize on diameter. When the fire formed case is resized, the die would push the over-expanded body back to a smaller diameter and the case grows in length between rim and shoulder while in the die. This may be as far fetched as stretching the shoulder with the expander stem. I don't know. If this were the case, then RC's solution would be spot on.

 

[Innovative]

Just look at all of the guesswork going on here! I'm saying that you can now measure your chamber clearance within half a thousandth (.0005"). Why spend so much time guessing when you can know for sure?

If you look around on any shooting forum, you'll see that there are a jillion shooters out there with these same thoughts and questions. We've all met shooters at the range with handloads that won't chamber. Some calibers have unique reloading charactoristics, and the cause for "fail to chamber" does vary.

If you guys were having a house built, I'm sure you would want the carpenters to take measurements . . . . right?

- Innovative

 

[Walkalong]

Gadgets to measure all things possible are cool and all, but a reloader doesn't need anything more than a dial caliper just to get reloads to chamber. Don't really even need that.

Now to get reloads that only size the brass just barely enough to chamber with no problems so we can get brass to last much longer, the tools come in very handy.

Mostly folks just need to use their chamber to get reloads that fit well without overworking the brass. The best way is to remove the firing pin assembly and use the guns chamber as a guide.

The next best method is to buy some cool tools and measure everything as closely as possible.

To get brass fitting the chamber as closely as possible, we need all those cool measurement tools.

 

[Innovative]

walkalong ........

I agree . . . . well somewhat . . . . almost. However, with our Digital Headspace Gauge there's no need to disassemble your riifle to get this measurement. Just compare one of your resized cases to one of your fired cases . . . . very simple.

- Innovative

 

[Walkalong]

I agree . . . . well somewhat . . . . almost.

Me too.....

Don't think I don't have some cool partially unnecessary measuring tools/gadgets laying around.

 

[snuffy]

I agree . . . . well somewhat . . . . almost. However, with our Digital Headspace Gauge there's no need to disassemble your riifle to get this measurement. Just compare one of your resized cases to one of your fired cases . . . . very simple.

Digital? If a person can't read a micrometer scale,,, --- well maybe he/she should take up knitting! I'm referring to the RCBS case mic. It apparently does the same thing.

I agree with walkalong, it's so darn simple to just size a case, then run that case into the chamber. If it resists, turn the die down some more.

Once in a while, a too tight headspace, coupled with overly long die or a thicker than normal shell holder, you can't get the case sized enough to close the bolt. THEN you have to remove metal from the top of the shell holder or the bottom of the die.

The only way to get an actual measurement is to get some sort of case mic. Just fits is fine for reliable shells, but knowing just how much is comforting.

Then there's my Savage .308! Doing the normal FL die set-up, shell holder tight against bottom of FL die. Signs of incipient case head separations after just 2 loadings. I ordered and received a RCBS case mic. turns out the "normal" set-up procedure resulted in setting the shoulder back 14 thousandths!

 

[Deavis]

I used to pull the expander through .243 cases with a loud squeak , without doing a darn thing to the shoulder

So you measured the shoulder to make sure it didn't move? Well, I guess modify the shoulder angle would probably be the better description of the phenomenon. In other words you checked shoulder position at the datum with and without the ball in there? Can you share that data with us, I'm interested in seeing your measurements and seeing if it correlates with mine.

 

[Walkalong]

Here is the cheapest way I know, for multiple calibers, to keep from setting the shoulder back to much. I have one running around here somewhere. Just add a dial caliper.

It is meant to check bullets, but you can use a hole that the neck fits through and where the comparator rests on the shoulder.

Sinclair Bullet Comparator

 

[snuffy]

So you measured the shoulder to make sure it didn't move? Well, I guess modify the shoulder angle would probably be the better description of the phenomenon.

That was 35 years ago, no longer own that rifle, I didn't measure anything at that time. Just loaded shells, went shooting. I just am saying it didn't change either shoulder angle or position, just made a lot of noise.

 

[Seedtick]

Walkalong - Here is the cheapest way I know, for multiple calibers, to keep from setting the shoulder back to much. I have one running around here somewhere. Just add a dial caliper.

It is meant to check bullets, but you can use a hole that the neck fits through and where the comparator rests on the shoulder.

Sinclair Bullet Comparator

That's what I use, well I use the set made by Hornady.


ST

 

[fguffey]

Snuffy, that is the reason I form first then fire, again, I have an Eddystone with .016 thousands head space, that is a work out for any case new or used, I use 280 Remington cases new or once fired to form cases for chambers that have a long chamber, The R-P Cylinder brass (2.650 long with no shoulder) is the only wildcat case made that requires the shoulder to be formed by establishing it anywhere the hand loader is capable of putting it, for me all the rest of the cases are made too short, except when forming 8mm57 from 30/06, forming 308W from 8mm57 or 30/06, forming 35 Whelen and 338/06 from 280 Remington, etc.. Putting the shoulder where I want it is no accident.This technique also allows me to determine where the shoulder is located in relation to the bolt face 'before firing'.

The shoulder on the 280 Remington is ahead of the 30/06 shoulder .051 thousands, when setting up the the die and shell holder I use a feeler gage to create a gap of .016 thousands then size the 280 case to 30/06 +.016 thousands, after sizing, I trim then attempt to chamber, if the case does not chamber I decrease the gap to .015 and size the case again. When trimming I add the .016 thousands to the case length between the head of the case and shoulder.

And when necking up the 280 Remington case 338/06 and 35 Whelen the case shortens, this saves trimming, much easier than trying to get a case to cover the chamber when the case is too short as when forming 35 Whelen from 30/06 cases, by the time the process is finished the case is as much as .035 shorter than it was when the project started.

Necking up shortens the case/ necking down lengthens the case when the case is measured before and after sizing, when not measured there are assumptions as to what goes on, I use the RCBS Case Prep Center, I clean the necks with a brush that rotates with case lube on it, this helps eliminate the clunks and squeaks, in my opinion the $100.00 + or - spent on the case prep center is one of the best investments a hand loader can make, and it is a labor saving devise.

F. Guffey

 

[ranger335v]

"..Hornady guy said check the expander ball,..ONLY THING that could make the case...grow longer during sizing ...is that the expander ball drags on the neck on the way out and stretches the shoulder...stretches the case out just behind the shoulder. "

Snuffy" - "I've seen this answer so much here and on other forums, but, I don't buy it! In order to pull the neck AND shoulder forward enough to cause hard chambering, the expander ball would have to be damn near GLUED to the case!"

Roger that! Sure, it sounds so "true" that it must be so, right" But, it's nonsense, at least so far as stated. Yeah, it MIGHT move a shoulder a thou but that isn't going to be enough to even notice when chambering a round. Improper die adjustment covers 99.9%, maybe more.

Trying to set a die, any kind, by the numbers is virtually pointless. Just set the dies as they need be in order to work! Each die maker also makes presses so they write their "directions" for their own presses only well enough so a beginner can make ammo that will go BOOM, no more. Learning how to make better ammo that actually fits our own rifles is a large part of what reloading is about and no die or book "instructions" are going to tell us how to do that.

Understanding what our tools actually do and what our rifles NEED is the first hurtle. Then using the tools to make a proper fit in our rifle is OUR task, not a book's. And that may take a bit of experimentation?

In the very rare instance that a shell holder is actually a tad deep AND is coupled with a die that is a tad long can be cured by grinding/sanding a couple of thou off the bottom of the die. And that's NOT a big deal either.

There is precious litte wear on a case hardened shell holder and a case hardened die mouth that has no moving/sliding contact as they are used.

 

[fguffey]

I have an in-line, angle and butt grinder, two lathes and a mill, before I would grind the shell holder and or die, I would use a feeler gage, the feeler gage can be used to duplicate anything that can or is accomplished by grinding, I size cases from .017 thousands under a go-gage size chamber (with a Lee shell holder I can add .005 to that) to .011+ without compromising the integrity of the shell holder and or die.

If full length sizing means adjusting the die down to the shell holder with an additional turn? the shell holder and die must make 100% contact, the 'no big thing' coulcauseses contact on one side or the other, this could cause flexing, may not be 'no bit thing' but the 30/40 Krag had one locking lug, the 303 Enfield has rear locking lugs, somrifleses have bolts that do not contact the bearing surface of the receiveequallyly, alignment and 10intacttact is a big thing, when it comesto grinding, even with the equipment, I applie the 'leaver policy' I leaver the way I founder.

F. Guffey