.308 win sizing problem

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If full length sizing means adjusting the die down to the shell holder with an additional turn? the shell holder and die must make 100% contact, the 'no big thing' could cause contact on one side or the other, this could cause flexing, may not be 'no bit thing' but the 30/40 Krag had one locking lug, the 303 Enfield has rear locking lugs, some rifles have bolt lugs that do not contact the bearing surface of the receiver equally, alignment and 100% contact is a big thing, when it comes to grinding, even with the equipment, I apply the 'leaver policy' I leaver the way I founder.

Sorry about that,



F. Guffey
 
Jeff, when you say the fired round will rechamber easily but doesn't after resizing you've answered your own question. Obviously, something is happening your case when you resize that increases either diameter or length, or both. Screwing the sizing die down further clearly isn't the solution because, as you say, the fired case fits already so what would be accomplished by making it smaller? So for a simple test do this: Remove the entire neck button stem assembly, resize the case and see how it fits your rifle. If bolt closes easily you've pinpointed your problem.
 
Screwing the sizing die down further clearly isn't the solution because, as you say, the fired case fits already so what would be accomplished by making it smaller? So for a simple test do this: Remove the entire neck button stem assembly, resize the case and see how it fits your rifle. If bolt closes easily you've pinpointed your problem.

Yes it is! We've already debunked the expander button "pulling" the neck or shoulder forward. I already stated that the last few thousandths of case movement forward inside the FL die squeezes the body of the case behind the shoulder forward. If the die is NOT far enough down, that shoulder STAYS in the forward position. Hence the difficult chambering.

Jeffrey8mm has not returned to say if our tips have helped, so we're all making WAGs as to what the problem is.
 
"If full length sizing means adjusting the die down to the shell holder with an additional turn?"

But, it isn't. That's the "conventional wisdom" way to size any kind of cases so they will chamber and go BOOM, but it's not automatically the best way to "FL" size anything. Best way is to actually set the case shoulder back just enough to insure easy chambering. Going past that point unnecessarily increases case stretch and leads to the oft repeated "toss a case that has been fired fired times", etc. IF the case NEEDS to be jammed hard against the die, fine, do it, but, if not, just do what's needed and smile.


"the shell holder and die must make 100% contact,"

Sounds okay doesn't it? But why? Fact is, there is no reason to think any slight die/shell holder contact offset due to less than precise die mouth grinding will automatically result in the case taking on that offset. Why should it? The major case siing resistance, or 'back push' on a case is from the tapered walls and shoulder, NOT the last thousant on the thick web and head. Thus, any rational small amount of "out of square" opening to the die mouth will have little or no impact on the resized cases. Some cases do have heads that are out of square from the manufactor and it's been clearly proven that no FL sizing technique can correct it, nor does firing at very high pressues rarely correct it. Stands to reason that no simple FL sizing technique can induce it either!


"Screwing the sizing die down further clearly isn't the solution because, as you say, the fired case fits already so what would be accomplished by making it smaller?"

Not so, it doesn't fit, that's why it's difficult to close the bolt. Anytime something won't fit into a space, it is by defination too large. ?? The ONLY way to make that case fit is to make it smaller. Since it's very unlikely that a (nearly) fully resized case is too large in diameter all that remains is that the shoulder is too far forward. Screw the die down, likely another sixteenth turn (4.5 thousanth) will do it.
 
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the last few thousandths of case movement forward inside the FL die squeezes the body of the case behind the shoulder forward. If the die is NOT far enough down, that shoulder STAYS in the forward position. Hence the difficult chambering.

+1. The act of reducing the cartridge body dimensions with a FL die, forces the brass (and hence shoulder) to go the only place it can, forward.

Don
 
" The act of reducing the cartridge body dimensions with a FL die, forces the brass (and hence shoulder) to go the only place it can, forward."

Exactly so. At least until it's pushed back by the die shoulder. And if we don't push it back far enough it will be difficult or impossible to close the bolt. ??
 
The shoulder moves forward a bit inside the sizer as the case body is sized down, until the die shoulder starts pushing the case shoulder back.

I wonder how far off the shell holder the die has to be to only move the shoulder forward when sizing?
 
"I wonder how far off the shell holder the die has to be to only move the shoulder forward when sizing?"

I believe we can be sure the shoulder starts moving forward immediatly when the case wall contacts the die wall, no matter how far off shell holder contact that may be.
 
To only move the shoulder forward when sizing?

In other words, how far off the shell holder when the die shoulder contacts the case shoulder and before and puts it back to at least where it started.

I believe we can be sure the shoulder starts moving forward immediatly when the case wall contacts the die wall, no matter how far off shell holder contact that may be.
Absolutely.
 
"Sizing the case and the effect sizing has on the position of the shoulder, first the neck gets sized then the body of the case starts to get sized, when this happens the shoulder is pushed forward, then the shoulder gets sized, this is the reason I like the versatility of the full length sizer die, it neck sizes with partial body support, with a feeler gage the effect the case length has on head space can be controlled, the feeler gage works better than a 'tad' or 'smidgen' '"

Before the Internet and before anyone on this forum discovered it it was written the shoulder moves forward when the body is sized, not in a conventional way but the shoulder takes on a slight arch or radius similar to the shoulder on a Weatherby case. When forming Weatherby cases to other calibers, the radius disappears with no more than the the weight of the handle on the press.

F. Guffey
 
If the hand loader can (will) adjust the die in the press to the shell holder and has the ability to determine head space before firing and can transfer the head space measurement to the die, press and shell holder the length of the case from the head of the case to it's shoulder when sized eliminates guessing and leaves nothing to be assumed.

There are other gages I find helpful, not recognizable, for measuring case head expansion, case expansion and the effect the camber has on fired cases, not expensive but foreign to the hand loader.

F. Guffey
 
It would be helpful if some real experts on handloading would chime in, but I expect they're having too much fun watching this. Assuming that is, that they ever take the time to look a this stuff.
 
Haven't seen it mentioned yet but you may want to check the primers. If it isn't seated flush or below, it usually will not chamber on most rifles. Dirty primer pockets or a weak hand on a hand primer will get you with hard primers.
 
It would be helpful if some real experts on handloading would chime in, but I expect they're having too much fun watching this.

If you knew the background of some of the people who have chimed in, you wouldn't make that statement.

Don
 
I bought a new RCBS #3 shellholder in order to eliminate that possibility. I will try both removing the decap/exp ball unit and then try the turing down of the die. I then will post the results. Thanks for all the info fellows!!!!!!!!
Jeff
 
jfdavis58 ........

The picture you copied (above) shows the "adjustable v-block" on our Digital Headspace Gauge. It adjusts to fit the shoulder of your case, and the rear screw locks that setting. Then you set the height of this asm. on one of your fired cases and zero the gauge. Any case readings after that will display your exact chamber clearance (at the shoulder).

Here's a good link to see the instructions:
http://www.larrywillis.com/instructions2.html

If you email me, I'll send you an huge image of the picture you posted. That will give you a real good view of the parts.

- Innovative
[email protected]
 
hope this helps

Whatever sizing die you use,,,, retire it and buy a Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die. Not that your dies are not good but I know the outstanding results I've got through using this die. It's cheap and works well, I can't see using anything else, especially if you are shooting for acuracy, and you are loading for one particular gun. Using a neck sizer like this one keeps the brass the size of the rifles chamber, and eliminates having to trim the case every couple reloads like when using a full lenth sizer. So try this, and follow the specs in your reloading book for proper neck and shoulder measurments for the case.
 
Muley, I do not have a lot of Lee products, I do appreciate your contribution, it is not likely Lee is going to reward you, therefore you do not have a financial interest in what equipment a hand loader chooses to use, nor do I,

When someone has a financial interest their contribution sounds like a pitch, I still believe the tool he is selling is a case gage, I believe the tool does little more than satisfy a curiosity, again I move the shoulder back .049 thousands on a 280 Remington to determine if a 30/06 chamber is go-gage size with nothing more than a press, shell holder, die and feeler gage.

In his pitch it is always something RCMODEL and I do not understand.

F. Guffey
 
fguffy .....

Try to understand this. I've spent countless hundreds of hours writing over 125 pages on my website that "share" reloading and shooting techniques. (I only sell 2 products.) Our Digital Headspace Gauge is the latest, and it solves the problem described in the original post. Don't get ticked off at fellow shooters when they show shooting related products. Making a reasonable profit is a good thing (except in Obama's agenda).

If you knew how much it takes to get any product to market in the U.S. you would understand that it's a miracle our industry still exists. The lawyers make it mandatory to buy a million dollar insurance policy before Midway or Cabela's can even buy a product. I paid that price for 2 years, but the cost of the policy kept going up as sales increased. Believe me, there are many awesome shooting and reloading products that will never be seen by shooters, and only a limited few shooters will own those products - thanks to the lawyers.

Due to the fact that my Digital Headspace Gauge solves the problem that was originally posted, and that it is totally NEW and unique, most shooters are interested to hear about it. Have a little understanding that there are new ideas (and products) that really need to be seen by shooters, and profit is only a dirty word to the socialist liberals.

- Innovative
 
I will be more flattering, rather than say you do not comprehend what is being said I will say you are ignoring others attempt to contribute, I said the tool satisfies a curiosity and that is to determine the effect the chamber has on a case when fired, once the curiosity has been satisfied the information gained is nice to know. I know the effect the chamber will have on the case before I fire, I form first then fire, when I use a tool to measure the effect the chamber has on a case I am using a case gage, when I I check a chamber for head space and the effect it will have on a case, I use a head space gage.

Nice to know, once the case is fired it fits,leave it that way by neck sizing, again I choose to neck size with a full length sizer die, most recommend a neck sizer die, I like the added benefit of case support

You have said nothing about how the nice information gained from your tool can used when adjusting the die, shell holder and press, for those that have been around for a while few are so vain as to think or present information in such a manner that would lead someone else to believe they invented hand loading, for the most part I am passing 'IT' on.

F. Guffey
 
For my 6 PPC cases I use a short piece of an old barrel that has been partially "chambered". They run the reamer in it enough to cut the neck and most of the the shoulder. I can take a piece of brass, stick it in this "gauge", & get a measurement with my dial caliper. If I do that on fired brass, and then sized brass, it will tell me how far I have moved the shoulder. That, plus the unknown of how far back the case rebounded (shrunk back) inside the chamber, is my "working headspace". Pretty simple. If you really wanted to know exactly how much, you could make a cerrosafe cast of your chamber, & get measurement with it first. That would take the elasticity of the brass out of the equation.

There are simple ways to get our measurements, and complicated ways to get our measurements. There are simple tools and fancy tools. Used with care, most ways work.
 
fguffey .....

I completely agree with you about preferring a FL die instead of a NK die. It's much better to use the FL die while it's supported by the whole case. That assures perfect concentric alignment, and if done right a FL die can bump the shoulder very accurately - just like having custom dies.

When a resized case is accurately compared (at the shoulder) to a fired case - the difference represents chamber clearance. That's what our Digital Headspace Gauge measures.

You mentioned that I should explain how this nice information can be used. Hopefully this link will help:

Click on - Operating Instructions

I'm not saying that I invented handloading, but almost 4,000 shooters now find it much easier by using our patented tools. Visit our website and you'll see a whole lot of other reloading tools that I don't make, and why I recommend some of them. My main goal is to support shooters, and to preserve our gun rights. If it wasn't for motivated shooters we would not have gun rights in America today.

- Innovative
 
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