308 Winchester 16” v 20” barrel length noise question
- Thread starter Balrog
- Start date
gotboostvr
Member
The muzzle blast will be significantly more abusive to the shooter with the shorter barrel.
A compensator will exacerbate it even further.
Something like a linear compensator (Kaw Valley Precision or similar) will make things much more pleasant.
I like 16" 308's of various flavors, they just have some considerations you need to think about or they can be unpleasant. I would go so far as to say, if you're not going to suppress it, the linear comp is absolutely the choice of muzzle device for a 16".
A compensator will exacerbate it even further.
Something like a linear compensator (Kaw Valley Precision or similar) will make things much more pleasant.
I like 16" 308's of various flavors, they just have some considerations you need to think about or they can be unpleasant. I would go so far as to say, if you're not going to suppress it, the linear comp is absolutely the choice of muzzle device for a 16".
The best way I could probably put it is yes there's enough difference to tell them apart if they were shot side by side where you could compare the sound but not enough difference that if someone shot one or the other you could determine barrel length by the sound.
Yes, the 16" is a bit louder, but that doesn't mean that the 20" is quiet by any means. If you want or need a 16", go for it. If you're thinking about getting the 16 and adding a linear comp, I'd just get the 20". If you're gonna have the length and weight, you may as well have the velocity too.
PistoleroWadcutterGANG
Member
YES! I have a Ruger (gunsite) Scout .308 rifle with a 16" barrel. I'm not allowed to shoot with the group. lol, my club has a rule about this. Guys wanting to shoot short barreled, compensated, high energy (ugh... High power) rifles and Handguns get banished all the way to the opposite end of the firing line. Also, they have a restriction on rate of fire! (LOL)
To the shooter, not much difference. But others off to the side there will be a noticeable difference.
There are worse offenders than a 16" 308 though. To my ears a conventional length 300 or 7mm magnum is worse. 357 and 44 magnum revolvers are close. The most offensive I've heard are AR pistols with 7-10" barrels.
There are worse offenders than a 16" 308 though. To my ears a conventional length 300 or 7mm magnum is worse. 357 and 44 magnum revolvers are close. The most offensive I've heard are AR pistols with 7-10" barrels.
cougar1717
Member
"Appreciably louder" is hard to judge. Years ago, some random person at the range was wowed by how loud my hunting rifle was as I was sighting it in. He asked me what caliber it was, with the obvious expectation that I would respond with some "338-louden-boomer". He appeared quite surprised when I said "243 Win" and looked at my target crown rifle. All that to say, most people can't decipher decibels between "that's loud" and "I have a headache and am going to the car."
The shooter with 308 rifle that has a muzzle device where gasses are directed to the sides will not likely be friends with their bench neighbors. There are a ton of "courtesy warning" firearms. I would also add Mini/Micro Dracos to the list.
The shooter with 308 rifle that has a muzzle device where gasses are directed to the sides will not likely be friends with their bench neighbors. There are a ton of "courtesy warning" firearms. I would also add Mini/Micro Dracos to the list.
Old Hobo
Member
The .308 is very forgiving in shorter barrels -- short barrels get the majority of the powder burned. A 16" barrel won't, but as TonyAngel says, "that doesn't mean that the 20" is quiet by any means." TonyAngel also points-out that the 20" barrel will get you some extra velocity -- quite true. I've found rifles with even 22" barrels quite swingable / handy / maneuverable in forests. Too, getting as much powder burned as possible results in less muzzle flash / fireball.
When someone is firing a high-power rifle with a short barrel next to you, it's not just loud, you can feel the concussion / pressure wave in your chest. Was firing a shortened barrel Nagant at the range this past week. Grandson at bench next to me said he felt the shock-wave hit him.
When someone is firing a high-power rifle with a short barrel next to you, it's not just loud, you can feel the concussion / pressure wave in your chest. Was firing a shortened barrel Nagant at the range this past week. Grandson at bench next to me said he felt the shock-wave hit him.
W.E.G.
Member
Unless you want your ears ringing hard, you're gonna need ear-pro either way.
Conelrad
Member
NATO M80 loading is just about finished burning with an 18" barrel. 165gr likes a 20" at least.
Just what I've seen & experienced with FALs, G3's and bolt guns.
Conelrad
Just what I've seen & experienced with FALs, G3's and bolt guns.
Conelrad
NIGHTLORD40K
Member
The SOCOM 16 is pretty obnoxious- I kinda want one, but its just too damn loud.
AK and AR pistols, and .30 Carbine Blackhawks are on my "courtesy warning" list.....
nastynatesfish
Member
To me the 16” is louder. Blast is more depending what you have for a muzzle device vs regular crown vs muzzle shroud. I prefer shorter barrel 308s. 14.5-12.5”. For my uses out to 700m. Sure you lose fps but that’s all I’m learning your rifle. I won’t own another 308 over 16”.
18”-13.7”-18”. Still have the ptr and the 13.7”.
18”-13.7”-18”. Still have the ptr and the 13.7”.
Pat Riot
Contributing Member
I have a Ruger SFAR 16”. The Ruger wears. “Boomer” muzzle brake. It’s appropriately named.
I also have an M1 Garand. Both the Ruger and the Garand are .308 Winchester. The Garand barrel is the same length as the original at 24”.
When firing the Ruger is louder than the Garand but honestly I can’t tell you by how much. They are both loud and I always shoot with plugs and muffs.
The one positive thing about the Boomer brake is it works well as a brake and muzzle rise is minimal.
I am curious about those KAW linear comps.
I also have an M1 Garand. Both the Ruger and the Garand are .308 Winchester. The Garand barrel is the same length as the original at 24”.
When firing the Ruger is louder than the Garand but honestly I can’t tell you by how much. They are both loud and I always shoot with plugs and muffs.
The one positive thing about the Boomer brake is it works well as a brake and muzzle rise is minimal.
I am curious about those KAW linear comps.
Riomouse911
Member
Before it was stolen, my buddy had an M1A SOCOM 16” that was a real filling-rattler for anyone standing nearby when it was fired.
My .243 M-77 RSI has an 18.5” barrel, and it is also a surprisingly loud one.
High powered rifles are all loud I guess, so I doubt there will be too much of a noise difference between the two when fired. Now performance wise, if you want it for longer ranges then the 20” is where to go.
Stay safe.
My .243 M-77 RSI has an 18.5” barrel, and it is also a surprisingly loud one.
High powered rifles are all loud I guess, so I doubt there will be too much of a noise difference between the two when fired. Now performance wise, if you want it for longer ranges then the 20” is where to go.
Stay safe.
Varminterror
Member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2016
- Messages
- 14,898
16” 308’s are a lot louder than 20” 308’s - whether you are used to one or the other, or are shooting the two side by side, the difference is substantial.
Reminding here, increasing muzzle blast decibels by 3dB doubles the sound energy, and decibels are a measure of sound pressure, and a 16” carbine has approximately 20% greater muzzle pressure than that of a 20” rifle, which would reflect ~20-24dB increase. Audibly, humans perceive sounds ~10dB apart to be “twice as loud as the other,” so a 16” WILL sound “a lot louder” than a 20”, and will actually be pumping something far, far more sound energy than even the perceived audible difference…
That’s not to say the 16” is unmanageably loud - lots of us have shorter barrels than 16” in cartridges which have much higher muzzle pressures and much higher sound energy than a 308 carbine. But 16” carbines are notably and distinctly louder than 20” rifles.
Reminding here, increasing muzzle blast decibels by 3dB doubles the sound energy, and decibels are a measure of sound pressure, and a 16” carbine has approximately 20% greater muzzle pressure than that of a 20” rifle, which would reflect ~20-24dB increase. Audibly, humans perceive sounds ~10dB apart to be “twice as loud as the other,” so a 16” WILL sound “a lot louder” than a 20”, and will actually be pumping something far, far more sound energy than even the perceived audible difference…
That’s not to say the 16” is unmanageably loud - lots of us have shorter barrels than 16” in cartridges which have much higher muzzle pressures and much higher sound energy than a 308 carbine. But 16” carbines are notably and distinctly louder than 20” rifles.
vanfunk
Member
^^^ Excellent analysis. My seat o’ th’ pants experience bears this out when shooting 16” and 20” .308s back to back. My range is relatively small and has just 5 shooting stations on a concrete pad; a wooden frame on the left and right supports a wood and metal full-length roof. The blast and concussion when shooting my 16” AR10 is extraordinary, and no doubt compounded by the partial enclosure of the shooting area. Last week I was joined at the range by another member who was sighting in a new Savage bolt gun in .308 with a 22” barrel. Whereas his rifle was “loud,” mine was downright obnoxious. Let’s also not forget the concussive effects of that pressure wave that can be felt as a “thump” in the chest. The other shooter’s face twisted into a miserable grimace when I touched off the first round. Moving the wooden bench out to the edge of the concrete pad so the muzzle protruded slightly outside of the shooting enclosure helped to ameliorate the blast a bit. There is a “blast mitigator” made for my rifle that reportedly directs much of the sound forward; I am looking into it as an option. I love shooting that rifle but am very self-conscious about it when shooting with other people at my range.
Charlie98
Member
The right tool for the job.
I have a 16" Socom16 M1a, and I have a 24" Savage bolt gun, both in .308. Yes, the 16" barrel is louder and, as was pointed out, the muzzle blast is markedly more intense. My Socom has the SAI muzzle brake as well, which probably doesn't help matters, but in reality, muzzle blast is muzzle blast no matter what direction it is going. I have fired the Socom indoors a few times, and have let people shoot it indoors, too. I always back off when they are firing it.
Funny story... I was indoors shooting the Socom, and people were giving me snotty looks, so I parked it for a while. All of a sudden, someone was firing next to me... and I'm like 'what the (heck) is that?!?!' Dude had a short barreled Mosin, and was firing Silver Bear (or similar) Russian ammo. Made my Socom sound like it was suppressed... I mean, that thing was LOUD!
If you handload, you can mitigate some of the perceived muzzle blast by powder selection... I've done so with the Socom16, switching to IMR3031 from IMR4895. I've done the same with my .348WCF, a 20" lever-action... I went from very slow H4831, which sounded like a field artillery piece going off, to IMR3031, which is still loud in the 20" barrel, but is not so blasty.
I mentioned I also have a 24" Savage... even with the extra 8" of barrel length, I'm not shooting it without ear protection. No, it does not have the perceived muzzle blast the Socom has, but it is no slouch, either. I use different, slower, powders for those handloads, and they are very often nearing max data.
At the end of the day, pick the rifle and barrel length to fit your purpose. I wanted a short-barreled semi-auto rifle... the Socom 16 filled that order, and quite handsomely. Where the Socom is very handy, but a little loud, the Savage is very UNhandy... and still loud. But they both fill specific roles...
I have a 16" Socom16 M1a, and I have a 24" Savage bolt gun, both in .308. Yes, the 16" barrel is louder and, as was pointed out, the muzzle blast is markedly more intense. My Socom has the SAI muzzle brake as well, which probably doesn't help matters, but in reality, muzzle blast is muzzle blast no matter what direction it is going. I have fired the Socom indoors a few times, and have let people shoot it indoors, too. I always back off when they are firing it.
Funny story... I was indoors shooting the Socom, and people were giving me snotty looks, so I parked it for a while. All of a sudden, someone was firing next to me... and I'm like 'what the (heck) is that?!?!' Dude had a short barreled Mosin, and was firing Silver Bear (or similar) Russian ammo. Made my Socom sound like it was suppressed... I mean, that thing was LOUD!
If you handload, you can mitigate some of the perceived muzzle blast by powder selection... I've done so with the Socom16, switching to IMR3031 from IMR4895. I've done the same with my .348WCF, a 20" lever-action... I went from very slow H4831, which sounded like a field artillery piece going off, to IMR3031, which is still loud in the 20" barrel, but is not so blasty.
I mentioned I also have a 24" Savage... even with the extra 8" of barrel length, I'm not shooting it without ear protection. No, it does not have the perceived muzzle blast the Socom has, but it is no slouch, either. I use different, slower, powders for those handloads, and they are very often nearing max data.
At the end of the day, pick the rifle and barrel length to fit your purpose. I wanted a short-barreled semi-auto rifle... the Socom 16 filled that order, and quite handsomely. Where the Socom is very handy, but a little loud, the Savage is very UNhandy... and still loud. But they both fill specific roles...
I'm wondering where you came up with these #s 20 dB would be ~4X as loud everything I've watched and read on actual meter readings doesn't show anywhere near a 20 dB. You sure you didn't miss a decimal point 2 to 2.4 dB would be more inline with the tests I've seen.
I don't know the dB numbers, but my CZ 550 Varmint in .308 with its 26" barrel is very noticeably quieter at the shooter's ears than my AR-10's 16" barrel. I also have a .308 CZ in 20.5" but I don't recall ever having that one out with the other two.
May be irrelevant, but with .22 LR I have a lot of barrel lengths among my 30+ models ranging from about 4.7" to 28". There is a HUGE difference in how loud a given round is as you progress up in barrel length. The pistols at the lower end of the range are waay too loud to even think about shooting without ear protection, while the 28" sounds more like a suppressed 16", literally. The 16" unsuppressed is still quite loud for a .22. It quiets down a lot by 24". I much prefer shooting my 27 - 28" .22 LRs because I don't need hearing protection (assuming there are no other loud guns shooting nearby), and I hate the annoyance of hearing protection.
Again, possibly not directly relevant to .308 -- I always wear plenty of ear protection and haven't paid attention to the few different lengths I have -- but at least in the .22 LR, perceived volume is very closely related to barrel length.
May be irrelevant, but with .22 LR I have a lot of barrel lengths among my 30+ models ranging from about 4.7" to 28". There is a HUGE difference in how loud a given round is as you progress up in barrel length. The pistols at the lower end of the range are waay too loud to even think about shooting without ear protection, while the 28" sounds more like a suppressed 16", literally. The 16" unsuppressed is still quite loud for a .22. It quiets down a lot by 24". I much prefer shooting my 27 - 28" .22 LRs because I don't need hearing protection (assuming there are no other loud guns shooting nearby), and I hate the annoyance of hearing protection.
Again, possibly not directly relevant to .308 -- I always wear plenty of ear protection and haven't paid attention to the few different lengths I have -- but at least in the .22 LR, perceived volume is very closely related to barrel length.
Last edited:
Only way to know for sure is get two of the same rifles one with a 16" and the other with a 20". Same muzzle device, same ammo and get a sound logger to test it yourself. Least you'll get an idea. I went with an 18" AR10 because it's a good compromise between the 16 and 20" and it was cheaper. Also have my Mossberg 800a .308 that has a 22" barrel. Either way I don't shoot without ear pro on. Plugs at minimum.
Try shooting full power 7.62 X 54 R in one of these
and compare the noise and fireballs to the same cartridge fired in one of these. The long barrel makes a huge difference.
I think this is a 24 inch barrel
this one is said to be 18.75 inches. Fireballs! Huge blast!
This has an 18 inch barrel, it is a noise maker. Then the bolt carrier comes back and knocks you, and your case flies 30 yards away.
In terms of noise, when deer hunting I could hear shots that were at least 1000 yards away. Guns are loud!
A fellow coworker was on a battleship bridge when the guns were fired. I assume it was practice. He said, even on the bridge, it felt as if someone or something had hit his stomach.
and compare the noise and fireballs to the same cartridge fired in one of these. The long barrel makes a huge difference.
I think this is a 24 inch barrel
this one is said to be 18.75 inches. Fireballs! Huge blast!
This has an 18 inch barrel, it is a noise maker. Then the bolt carrier comes back and knocks you, and your case flies 30 yards away.
In terms of noise, when deer hunting I could hear shots that were at least 1000 yards away. Guns are loud!
A fellow coworker was on a battleship bridge when the guns were fired. I assume it was practice. He said, even on the bridge, it felt as if someone or something had hit his stomach.
I too fail to understand the math. If a 3dB increase represents double the energy (100% increase) how does a 20% increase equate to 20-24dB? This study https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2010/armament/WednesdayCumberlandPhilipDater.pdf , albeit done with 556 is in line with what you suggest and with what I've read elsewhere. Not to say that a 16" 308 isn't loud and blasty, but that the numbers being used to describe it aren't right. 20dB would be 100X the energy (louder).
greyling22
Member
when the guys with the 16" muzzle brake equipped 308's show up at the range, I leave and go to the pistol bays.