32 acp

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I guess those of us who like the .32 ACP, at least too some, are misguided in our appreciation of the guns chambered for it and the caliber's ability.

At least we can resolve ourselves that we stand in good company.

John Moses Browning developed the round and one of his personal favorites was the FN 1910 chambered in this caliber.

Alvin C York of WWI fame carried a CZ 24 chambered in .32.
http://www.jcs-group.com/military/war1914us/1918meuse5.html

General Omar Bradley carried a Colt 1903 .32 ACP.

General Patton was known on occasion to sport a .32 ACP, but favored the .380.
 
More ridiculous errornet bologna all around.

When real numbers from equivalent platforms are used, you see that 32acp and 380 are very close in both muzzle energy, as well as energy density (ft-lbs per surface area), with the 380 having only a slight edge. THIS is why they penetrate similarly given similar bullets.

Larger bullets are always preferable, but the types of pocket guns these rounds are chambered for are invaluable. It is not possible to carry a 45 or 10mm at all times, unless you change your lifestyle to fit the gun - many of us see life differently; we want our guns to fit US, and our lives. Guns are intended to be tools - when you make changes to accommodate your gun, then YOU become the tool.

I will continue carrying my P-32 95% of the time, and feel good about it. Do I strap on a 40, 45, or even 44 mag when the situation is appropriate? You bet - but those times are few and far between.
Not true. The avarage 380 ACP fartory loads are about 200 ft/lbs KE while the .32 cal only avarages in the 120ft/lbs range. Then you factor in the increased soft tissue damage from having much more mass/momentum/caliber and it is clear to see that the 380 is in a whole differnet class. 380 ACP +P factroy loads run as high as 280 ft/lbs similar to the .38 Special +P loads. While I would much rather have a 32 over a pocket knive, I would also rather carry the extra 1 1/2 oz to have 380 firepower.
 
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A .32 ACP in the right hands is all you need

Much has been said on this forum and others about stopping power, one shot stops, and the magic bullet.

A lot of opinions have been given by many armchair experts who have never had to kill someone in a self defense situation, most only imagine what would happen and what they need for this imaginary situation.

The New York Police Department did a study which debunks many of these imaginary situations and gives you a realistic look into deadly violence. Their study can be found at: http://www.pointshooting.com/1asop9.htm

Nº 13 "During the period 1970 through 1979, the Police inflicted 10 casualties for every one suffered at the hands of their assailants. In all of the cases investigated, one factor stood out as a proper measure of bullet efficiency. It was not the size, shape, configuration, composition, caliber, or velocity of the bullet. Bullet placement was the cause of death or an injury that was serious enough to end the confrontation".

Data gathering began in January 1970, and over 6000 cases were studied during the 1970s. The study results and findings were released in 1981. The following sets out many of those that focus on shooting situations and shooting techniques.

1. From Sept 1854 to Dec 1979, 254 Officers died from wounds received in an armed encounter. The shooting distance in 90% of those cases was less than 15 feet. Contact to 3 feet-34%, 3 feet to 6 feet-47% , 6 feet to 15 feet-9%

2. The majority of incidents occurred in poor lighting conditions. None occurred in what could be called total darkness. It was noted that flashlights were not used as a marksmanship aid. Also, dim light firing involves another element which is different from full light firing, muzzle flash.

3. Firearms accounted for only 60% of the attacks on Police. However, in the 254 cases of Officers killed in an armed encounter, firearms were used in 90% (230) of them, and knives in 5% (11). In all cases reviewed, an unauthorized or gimmick holster (ankle, shoulder, skeleton, fast draw, clip-on etc.) was involved when the revolver was lost, accidentally discharged, or the Officer was disarmed.

4. In 70% of the cases reviewed, sight alignment was not used. Officers reported that they used instinctive or point shooting.

5. 65% of the Officers who had knowledge of impending danger, had their revolvers drawn and ready. Reports on incidents involving Police death revealed that the Officer was alone more often than not and that he was confronted by at least two people.

6. The element reported as the single most important factor in the Officer's survival during an armed confrontation was cover.

7. In 84% of the cases reviewed, the Officer was in a standing or crouch position (supported and unsupported) when he fired.

8. The double action technique was used in 90% of the situations and used almost without exceptions in close range, surprise, or immediate danger situations.

9. A warning shot may set off chain reaction firing.

10. The average number of shots fired by individual Officers in an armed confrontation was between two and three rounds.

11. The necessity for rapid reloading to prevent death or serious injury was not a factor in any of the cases examined. In close range encounters, under 15 feet, it was never reported as necessary to continue the action.

12. It has been assumed that if a man can hit a target at 50 yards he can certainly do the same at three feet. That assumption is not borne out by the reports.

13. During the period 1970 through 1979, the Police inflicted 10 casualties for every one suffered at the hands of their assailants. In all of the cases investigated, one factor stood out as a proper measure of bullet efficiency. It was not the size, shape, configuration, composition, caliber, or velocity of the bullet. Bullet placement was the cause of death or an injury that was serious enough to end the confrontation.
 
Kachok said:
The avarage 380 ACP fartory loads are about 200 ft/lbs KE while the .32 cal only avarages in the 120ft/lbs range.

For a fair comparison, the velocities from both cartridges to be compared should be from similar barrel lengths.

The OP asked about the P32, so the equivalent would be the P3AT or something similar. The average energy of 200 ft/lbs from a P3AT is quite lofty.

The link below will give a fair comparison between the two:

http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/tests.htm

According to that site:

From a P32, a 60gr Corbon JHP offers 1008 FPS and 135 ft/lbs.
From a P-3AT, a 90gr Corbon JHP offers 950 FPS and 181 ft/lbs.

Outside Buffalo Bore or the ilk, these are about the hottest loads available for either. Though there's a difference, noticed the .32acp is a bit hotter than 120 ft/lbs and the .380acp is a bit more mild than 200 ft/lbs.

Other popular defensive rounds for the .380acp from the the P-3AT are Speer's 90gr Gold Dot (909 FPS 165 ft/lbs) and Remington's 102gr Golden Saber (773 FPS 135 ft/lbs).

Popular hardball for both?

Winchester's 95gr FMJ-FN .380acp offers a velocity of 837 FPS and 148 ft/lbs of energy.

Sellier & Bellot's 73gr FMJ .32acp offers a velocity of 912 FPS and an energy of 135 ft/lbs.

Apples to apples. Obviously there's still a difference between the two, but less dramatic still.

I feel the .380acp is a superior cartridge. However, for such small pistols, I'd have no issues choosing the .32acp, especially if it affords me less recoil and an extra round.
 
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Nice statistics, but with perfect shot placement a 22 short is all you would ever need, but the real world can be very differnet. I recal reading a case a long time ago where an officer was confronted with a situation where a suspect lunged for a shotgun. The officer shot him with all six shots from his .38 revolver, all but one were a torso hit if memory serves me. Dispite being hit six times the suspect turned the shotgun on the officer and killed him with one blast of buckshot before dying himself. Would those six shots have droped him before he reached his weapon had the officer been using .40 S&W Ranger Tallons or other high performance bullet? I think so, but that is purely speculative. The moral of the story is there is no such thing as "too much" firepower when your life is on the line and I highly doubt that anyone would ever consider the 32 or even the 380 excessive firepower. No law enforcement agency that I know of issues 32s, 380s or even 38 Special as their primary weapon, that will tell you something. The smallest I have ever carried for personal defence was a 9mm.
 
Kachok, I completely agree that neither the .32acp nor .380acp is ideal. I'll also point out that my primary carry pistol is a M&P40c loaded with 11 rounds of 180gr Federal HST.

For home defense, it's either 12ga pump or M1 Carbine.

However, for such tiny pistols such as the P32 and P3AT, I believe placement is even more critical. When I do carry the P32, I consider it a "face gun" and that's where I'm aiming. If I'm forced to use it, I'll be close enough to the assailant for that to be a realistic point of aim.
Given this, I believe the .380acp would offer me very little over a .32acp and cost me recovery time from shot to shot and one less round.
 
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Kachok
what's your dog in this???
just in it for the argument???

while it's nice that YOU Prefer 9mm and larger
that's NOT the op's question

there are just as many .40 and 9mm 'failure to stop' as there are in any caliber
guns are magic wands
and bullets have no mystical "Dropped 'Em Right There" powers

it's like Real Estate
LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION
you can't do anything with out first
placing your round where penetration will do some good

So it comes down to a question of what gun can you shoot accurately
I've got a Kel Tec P40 I'll sell you,
same size and basic weight as a KT P11, have fun hitting with it...


See sometimes MORE isn't better
just because you can pack a .45 (semmerling) into a pocket pistol
it doesn't do you a lick of good if you can't hit with it.
in something that is HELD in a compromised 2 finger grip, the P32 is a better compared than a P3At.

I find it more accurate and easier to control. A 9mm in a similar size/weight is considered a 'specialist' gun, look at the Rohrbaugh, do you care to guess about .40??? are you that foolish?

.32 provides an adequate caliber in a VERY SMALL package.
 
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I don't have a dog in this fight, I don't care for either the 380 or the 32. I promise as long as the barrel on your P40 is streight I can shoot it accuratly, I have been shooting since I could walk, and I am not recoil shy AT ALL. Not with my magnum rifles or high powerd pistols. I wish I could find a modern double stack 10mm or 460 Rowland that fit my small hands :) 9s 40s and 45s even in featherweight handguns don't phase me.
 
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I am fond of both my Beretta and CZ in 32acp and think they are up to the task as long as I do my part. If penetration is an issue as it seems for some, I would recommend Buffalo Bore 75gr hardcast rounds. They work quite well in both of my "little" 32's.
 
Buffalo bore hardcast 75gr punches 15.3" into ballistic gel, while the wound tract is nothing to wright home about, at leased it drives deep enough unlike the HPs for the 32 which peter out between 6 and 10 inches :barf: No thanks I'll pass. To show you the contrast with a real 9mm round, the 124gr remington gold saber expands to .62" and still drive to 15.2" in ballistics gel. Do the math on that and you are looking at over 4 times the soft tissue damage, and several times the level of shock to the tissue. That is why the 9mm is the smallest I like, now if they made a 90-100gr bullet for the 32 ACP that would expand and still drive to the 14" range I would be a bigger fan. I value permanate would cavity over "hydrostatic shock".
 
Of course you do. Hydrostatic shock in handguns...what? Permanent crush cavity is the proper method for measuring handgun round effectiveness.
 
I like the crush and cut effect of the Barnes, Ranger Talon, and Gold Saber bullets. It seems to be more efficient then the pure mushroom bullets. If you want rapid and consistant incapacitation it is all about permanate wound cavity causing rapid loss of blood pressure. Virtualy no handgun bullets move fast enough to stretch soft tissue beyond it's elastic limits, so there really is alot to be said for large caliber in handguns.
 
Decision made, now just practice. Personally I carry a Kahr K9, not because it is 9 mm, but because I shoot it well. My 32 is a J Frame 327 Federal Magnum, it shoot well also.
 
Kachok contributes:

.38s were replaced in LE a long time ago, not because they would not drop someone, but because they would not drop someone before they could shoot you back

Actually, the .38 SPL round was phased out by LE for reason of firepower, not ballistics. The 9mm ammo being widely offered in that era was still inferior in the ballistic sense to the then-current breed of .38 +P ammunition it was replacing. The idea that "16 is better than six" was the reason for the transition, not the inefficacy of the .38 Special round.
This is why the latter also soon fell out of favor with law enforcement with the advances of ammunition such as the .357 SIG, .40 S&W and the .45 GAP. (the last of which is carried by my state's highway patrol troopers), and the "revival" of the .45ACP as a duty weapon.

But, this is a .32ACP thread, so I'll contribute at least something to it. I carry a P32 loaded with FN-FMJ ammunition. This is the only ammo I have been able to get my hands on enough of to "qualify" it for duty. However, the gun is carried alone only on the way to and from my otherwise gun-free job (EMS) in the pocket of my duty uniform pants. Almost all other times it is carried, it is in a pocket below and in front of my PF-9, which rides on my belt just aft of my hip.

Edit: Small, but not insignificant correction.. before the peak of the .38-to-9mm changeover, many departments implemented the .357 Magnum round to boost ballistics. Can't figure out how I forgot that little detail, but, yeah, it is off thread-topic.
 
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A lot of opinions have been given by many armchair experts who have never had to kill someone in a self defense situation, most only imagine what would happen and what they need for this imaginary situation.

+1

...but if you read it on the internet ~ it must be true.
 
Kachok contributes:



Actually, the .38 SPL round was phased out by LE for reason of firepower, not ballistics. The 9mm ammo being widely offered in that era was still inferior in the ballistic sense to the then-current breed of .38 +P ammunition it was replacing. The idea that "16 is better than six" was the reason for the transition, not the inefficacy of the .38 Special round.
This is why the latter also soon fell out of favor with law enforcement with the advances of ammunition such as the .357 SIG, .40 S&W and the .45 GAP. (the last of which is carried by my state's highway patrol troopers), and the "revival" of the .45ACP as a duty weapon.

But, this is a .32ACP thread, so I'll contribute at least something to it. I carry a P32 loaded with FN-FMJ ammunition. This is the only ammo I have been able to get my hands on enough of to "qualify" it for duty. However, the gun is carried alone only on the way to and from my otherwise gun-free job (EMS) in the pocket of my duty uniform pants. Almost all other times it is carried, it is in a pocket below and in front of my PF-9, which rides on my belt just aft of my hip.
One small correction, the 9mm ammo available at the time was a bit more potent then the 38 +P ammo. I have been shooting both for years and even the most mild loadings for the 9mm match or excede what the 38 Special +P makes. Even the old standard pressure 115gr winchester HPs were 1225fps in a 4" barrel that is 383 ft/lbs of energy well above the 240ft/lbs that the Remington .38+P HPs made when I was in state law enforcement.
 
Who cares if someone's 9x19 was faster than someone elses .38 +P? The question involved the P32, and the .32 ACP ammunition.

I've been carrying a P32 for several years. I use Fiocchi 60 gr. JHP at 1000 fps out of the short barrel. It's accurate out to 15 yards, has never given rim-lock, and is more accurate than my P3AT at those distances.

I'm NOT a cop, and will use the gun only to dis-engage from a situation. I really don't CARE if the guy is dead, just that they stop shooting at me. I feel confident enough to be able to make head shots at up to 15 yards, and have even gone so far as to run 100 yards, then shoot bobbing balloons attached by strings to targets. While they haven't been able to shoot back, the combination of unpredictable movement, accelerated pulse and breathing, and a 5 second limit for 2 shots, and two hits, leaves me feeling like the combination is good for me.

FYI, European Police Agencies were NOT limited to "non-military calibers" There's also the small matter of Armies that issued the .32 ACP. They weren't "limited", either.

As for the Miami Shoot-out, the Silvertip became the scapegoat for horrendous tactics (which left two agents unarmed, and another without his glasses), and the matter of using handguns against rifles. The performance of a single bullet didn't decide the outcome any more than the lousy marksmanship that resulted in so many misses could be somehow traced to their bullet design.

It might also be noted that the FBI Protocols were ignored by a federal law-enforcement agency that is actually a leader in gun fighting, the Border Patrol.

Carry whatever one feels comfortable with. Not everyone is in a position to confront MS13, or an entire Chapter of the Hell's Angels. ;)
 
A lot of opinions have been given by many armchair experts who have never had to kill someone in a self defense situation, most only imagine what would happen and what they need for this imaginary situation.
We have several folks here who work or have worked in ER's, and they all say it is about shot placement. People who survive .44 Mag hits and people who die from .32 (or .22 LR) hits. Yes, a good .44 Mag hit is better, so don't even go there.

This was a cool thread for a while. Shame. :)
 
I own both a PPK/S in .380 and a PPK in .32. I don't doubt for a minute that the .380 is the superior cartridge as far as 'stopping power' (and I use that term somewhat loosely). Having said that, I can shoot rings around the .380 with the .32. My accuracy, follow up shots, and speed are much better with the .32. I know the .32 is not the best calibre in the world, but I am so much more confident in my ability with it over the .380 (and I wasn't that bad of a shot with the PPK/S), that I've started to carry the .32 almost exclusively.

I think the .32 is a much maligned cartridge. Yes, there are more powerful options, but in the right hands, I think it can be an effective SD round. Practice, confidence, and familiarity with the calibre are key. Just my two cents.
 
"7.65, James, I told you it was the best! Why must you keep beating yourself up over it?" ........
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Buddy, wild guess, NOT KT mags (made by Mecgar BTW)
Or, you were shooting short OAL HP's, without a Flyerwire mod to the mag.

Almost every problem that can happen to this little gun, has. And there are guides out there on how to diagnose and fix it, and they are really easy to fix in most cases and get running 99 and a lot of .999s% with the right ammo.

And if that still isn't good enough, send it back, and it'll get polished by the pros a KT for free. I haven't heard someone complain about KT customer service that has EVER dealt with them, some have complained, but usually cause they are dealing with the GUN SHOP and not KT.
 
My little KT32 is a joy to shoot.
Brand new and has had exactly 100 rounds put through it absolutely problem free.
Floats like a butterfly and stings like a bee or some such.
It's a neat little pistol.
 
2 things

1 - most of the people that carry ultra compact pocket pistols don't post on these forums

2 - most of the people that carry ultra compact pocket pistols are toting 22's and 25's and they are not aware of how "horrible" they are for man stopping
 
I carry a P32 sometimes in the summer as my primary. I've had dreams (nightmares) about being in a shootout and wishing I had something bigger.

Because of these dreams I sometimes feel slightly under-gunned carrying my P32 as a primary but I still carry it. I suppose at the time the stuff is flying everyone wishes they had something bigger, but at least I have a gun and that's the first rule.
 
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