.32 and .380, FMJ or JHP?
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mtnbkr
Member
I'm torn on the subject. FMJ definately has better penetration, but my testing with water jugs and the 32acp shows almost no "disruption" with FMJ. You get a 32 caliber hole in and out with no movement of the jugs (penetrated 4 and kept going). It's no better than a knife. My hot handloads using a hollowpoint split the first jug open (and sprayed water all over me), and fully penetrate the second jug, leaving 45 caliber holes in and out of the 2nd jug. The slug put a circle of small holes in the third jug, but did not make the trip into the jug itself. I used the same load on a largish coconut at 10ft. I got a 32caliber hole going in, a 50 caliber hole going out, 2 large pieces, and a bunch of fragments.
What I'm getting to is that I'm starting to come to the realization that FMJ is next to worthless unless you hit something important that can cause death quickly (heart, lungs, spine, etc). A fast HP might not penetrate as deeply, but the effects will be more dramatic AND there should be more pain.
Chris
What I'm getting to is that I'm starting to come to the realization that FMJ is next to worthless unless you hit something important that can cause death quickly (heart, lungs, spine, etc). A fast HP might not penetrate as deeply, but the effects will be more dramatic AND there should be more pain.
Chris
I am in the full metal jacket crowd, especially with these calibers.
The tactics I adhere to involve the use of cover and concealment and the use of aimed fire.
Snap-Point shooting is used at ranges of 3 meters or less.
In my personal tests the factory JHP cartridges are not sufficently accurate in a wide variety of pistols while FMJ bullets can be counted on to hit in the general area that they are aimed towards.
JHP bullets may indeed be more 'effective' but only if they are able to connect with the target that they are being fired towards.
Accuracy levels can indeed be improved by handloaders.
Unfortunately some jurisdictions frown on the use of handloaded ammunition in defense situations and prosecutors will make a point of making you the bad guy should the situation involve a court appearance.
The tactics I adhere to involve the use of cover and concealment and the use of aimed fire.
Snap-Point shooting is used at ranges of 3 meters or less.
In my personal tests the factory JHP cartridges are not sufficently accurate in a wide variety of pistols while FMJ bullets can be counted on to hit in the general area that they are aimed towards.
JHP bullets may indeed be more 'effective' but only if they are able to connect with the target that they are being fired towards.
Accuracy levels can indeed be improved by handloaders.
Unfortunately some jurisdictions frown on the use of handloaded ammunition in defense situations and prosecutors will make a point of making you the bad guy should the situation involve a court appearance.
mtnbkr
Member
Cite the criminal cases where handloaded ammunition was a specific issue for the legal CCW holder and swayed the judgement of the case. Anything can be brought up in court, so a mention of it isn't a valid example.
As for accuracy, I strive for the best accuracy I can get from my weapons, but my 32 is for getting muggers, carjackers, and the like off of me and my family, not engaging in firefights at distance. My goal is a 3" or smaller group at 5yds. Just about any ammo will do that if I do my part though.
Chris
As for accuracy, I strive for the best accuracy I can get from my weapons, but my 32 is for getting muggers, carjackers, and the like off of me and my family, not engaging in firefights at distance. My goal is a 3" or smaller group at 5yds. Just about any ammo will do that if I do my part though.
Chris
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
Greeting's All-
In our Walther PPK, we have it stoked with Federal's 90 grain
JHP "Hydra Shok" Personal Defense Ammo.
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
In our Walther PPK, we have it stoked with Federal's 90 grain
JHP "Hydra Shok" Personal Defense Ammo.
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
Erich
Member
mtnbkr - which cases are those? 
I would recommend FMJ, as well. I've worked on several cases in which people were killed by these low-powered handguns, and adequate penetration is indeed an issue. (Shot placement is always an issue, of course.) FMJ .380s or .32s will indeed penetrate: I've got a case now in which a 280-lb 5'5" man's chest and upper arm were completely penetrated by a .380 ball round. The aorta was holed, and he was stopped (he was drunk and aggressive) and killed. There were six other .380 holes in his torso, IIRC, none of which stopped him. One (through his liver) would have been fatal - eventually - but did not stop him. The others (shot placement!) did not a heck of a lot.
I would recommend FMJ, as well. I've worked on several cases in which people were killed by these low-powered handguns, and adequate penetration is indeed an issue. (Shot placement is always an issue, of course.) FMJ .380s or .32s will indeed penetrate: I've got a case now in which a 280-lb 5'5" man's chest and upper arm were completely penetrated by a .380 ball round. The aorta was holed, and he was stopped (he was drunk and aggressive) and killed. There were six other .380 holes in his torso, IIRC, none of which stopped him. One (through his liver) would have been fatal - eventually - but did not stop him. The others (shot placement!) did not a heck of a lot.
I use JHP for .380. (Used FMJ in .32) Did my own non-scientifig testing in wet newprint. Found .380acp JHP's mushroomed reliably with up to 5 layers of denim in front of the box of damp media (vs. 7 layers for 9mm).
"Wound channels" in the media looked to be about 75% of the length as 9mm, or deep enough for my purposes. IIRC, penetration with good .308 mushrooms was about 9-11" (vs. 11-13" for 9mm.) Rounds that did not mushroom penetrated more like 12-14".
I like the 102gr. Golden Sabre (which is also the most accurate in my PPK clone) and the 90gr. Gold dot, which performs well in my P-3AT.
The 102gr. Golden Sabre also has a shape which is very similar to ball, so should promote good feeding in picky guns, IMHO.
"Wound channels" in the media looked to be about 75% of the length as 9mm, or deep enough for my purposes. IIRC, penetration with good .308 mushrooms was about 9-11" (vs. 11-13" for 9mm.) Rounds that did not mushroom penetrated more like 12-14".
I like the 102gr. Golden Sabre (which is also the most accurate in my PPK clone) and the 90gr. Gold dot, which performs well in my P-3AT.
The 102gr. Golden Sabre also has a shape which is very similar to ball, so should promote good feeding in picky guns, IMHO.
22luvr
Member
FMJ for me....
For any caliber smaller than the 9mm or .38 spcl, I stick with FMJ. Anything 9mm or .38 spcl and up gets JHP's.
I want maximum penetration from any presentation angle and also to not worry about how many layers of fabric a projectile must pass through that might hinder penetration.
For any caliber smaller than the 9mm or .38 spcl, I stick with FMJ. Anything 9mm or .38 spcl and up gets JHP's.
I want maximum penetration from any presentation angle and also to not worry about how many layers of fabric a projectile must pass through that might hinder penetration.
The best JHPs are much better stoppers in real life shootings than FMJ regardless of caliber. I use JHP's in my 32acp. A lot of people seem to be pulled into the "IF-IT-DOESN'T-PENETRATE-12"-IT-MIGHT-AS-WELL--BE-A-BB" philosphy. The Silvertips (at least the old ones) in 32acp penetrate 9" and have a 66% OSS, compared to a 50% OSS for FMJ. I will take the JHP everytime since 16% more criminals seem to prefer the FMJ.
Roll Tide
Roll Tide
mtnbkr
Member
I used to fall into that same trap until I tested both types of ammo against water jugs.
The 71gr@850fps FMJ load penciled in and out of 4 jugs. There was no movement of the jugs. That's good if you manage to hit a critical organ (heart or brain) or the spinal cord. It's bad if you hit anywhere else. It's going to take a while for a .32" hole to do anything.
The 60gr@1000fps JHP burst the first jug (full length split on the entry side with the entire jug moving upon impact) and punched a .45" hole in one side and out of the other side of the second jug. It barely punctured the third jug. Not much penetration, but the larger holes and better disruption should have a greater pain inducing effect.
I'm sticking with my JHP load.
Chris
MICHAEL T
Member
All four of my 380's are loaded with either Rem 102gr HP or CorBon 90gr HP . When I had a 32 was Gold dot or CorBon HP's .
Currently FMJ in both .32 and .380. I like the flat point FMJ in .380 for a little more damage? I don't know though, I flip flop on this issue. If there were a 125gr .380 load, even if it was realy slow, I think JHP would be fine. The sectional density at 90-102gr stinks at 9mm caliber. Of course, it would have to have a very large HP cavity to expand at low velocity. It's a tough question.
CZ-100
Member
I carry FMJ in my .380 
One enjoys much ever "Re-Invention of Wheel". No-One it seems recalls historically abysmal results of Fully-Enveloped Projectiles.
In 6.35mm as well, 7.65mm One does not "Via Expansion" tissue disruption to make, rather by impact velocity and Projectile of flat Meplat.
Quite usually, (In reality) such Projectiles as "Silvertips" will NOT in tissue deform/expand. Yet desirable over Fully-Enveloped.
Had this discussion with Joe Zambone when I the initial Research&Development upon what was later known as "Mag-Safe" Ammunition completed.
"Simply insufficiant Mass inherent in 6.35mm for deforming/fragmenting Projectiles efficacy retaining".
In fairness to Him, MOST "Defence Projectiles" are into such media as "Ballistic Water Bottles" expended. Gives Folk something to "Oh and Ah" about.
As to "Penetration", have this discussion with several "Zealots" had. If "Massive Penetration" in 19th and 20th Centuries such efficacy had, why then was any effort in developing deforming Projectiles expended?"
Along with "Joke Article" RE: "Ballistic Yoghurt", I did another Article write in jest; "12-18 Inches of Penetration; By Anyone Other Than Wife, Girlfriend Or Significant Other Required?"
This in response to "No Answer Forthcoming" in respect to question; "Will everyone who's wounds did NOT 12.0" penetrate now from Grave rise?"
"Penetration-Pundits" seem unable to rationalise why "Under-Penetrating Projectiles" effectively perform.
Perhaps as "Real-World", No "Deer" ever a Ballistics-Table read to be impressed, nor has anyone (Of My Knowledge) yet measured "Wound-Depth" in own Body only to then Sneer at Shooter; "Your Projectile Underpenetrated, I Taunt You!"
There ARE effective designs for 6.35/7.65mm as well, 9mmK (.380), pity is, not commercially extant!
In 6.35mm as well, 7.65mm One does not "Via Expansion" tissue disruption to make, rather by impact velocity and Projectile of flat Meplat.
Quite usually, (In reality) such Projectiles as "Silvertips" will NOT in tissue deform/expand. Yet desirable over Fully-Enveloped.
Had this discussion with Joe Zambone when I the initial Research&Development upon what was later known as "Mag-Safe" Ammunition completed.
"Simply insufficiant Mass inherent in 6.35mm for deforming/fragmenting Projectiles efficacy retaining".
In fairness to Him, MOST "Defence Projectiles" are into such media as "Ballistic Water Bottles" expended. Gives Folk something to "Oh and Ah" about.
As to "Penetration", have this discussion with several "Zealots" had. If "Massive Penetration" in 19th and 20th Centuries such efficacy had, why then was any effort in developing deforming Projectiles expended?"
Along with "Joke Article" RE: "Ballistic Yoghurt", I did another Article write in jest; "12-18 Inches of Penetration; By Anyone Other Than Wife, Girlfriend Or Significant Other Required?"
This in response to "No Answer Forthcoming" in respect to question; "Will everyone who's wounds did NOT 12.0" penetrate now from Grave rise?"
"Penetration-Pundits" seem unable to rationalise why "Under-Penetrating Projectiles" effectively perform.
Perhaps as "Real-World", No "Deer" ever a Ballistics-Table read to be impressed, nor has anyone (Of My Knowledge) yet measured "Wound-Depth" in own Body only to then Sneer at Shooter; "Your Projectile Underpenetrated, I Taunt You!"
There ARE effective designs for 6.35/7.65mm as well, 9mmK (.380), pity is, not commercially extant!
Erich
Member
Are you okay? Worried about you, I am.
Look, I've worked on dozens of cases where handgun bullets didn't penetrate enough to be effective. Insufficient penetration is a concern, at least for the rational, regardless of what the "energy-transfer cowboys" opine.
Look, I've worked on dozens of cases where handgun bullets didn't penetrate enough to be effective. Insufficient penetration is a concern, at least for the rational, regardless of what the "energy-transfer cowboys" opine.
Then pray "Individuals with Through-Wounds" yet functioning explain?
"Penetration" is not "In and of self" "The End". One must a variety of factors balance.
Were "Simple Penetration" answer, Fully-Enveloped 9x19mm (Parabellum) best of all eh?
Ich fühle fein! Thank You so much for enquiring!
"Penetration" is not "In and of self" "The End". One must a variety of factors balance.
Were "Simple Penetration" answer, Fully-Enveloped 9x19mm (Parabellum) best of all eh?
Ich fühle fein! Thank You so much for enquiring!
Now available in paperback, "Yoda on Terminal Ballistics".
I've seen my share of shootings, and penetration is paramount, especially in light calibers.
In .32, hollow points are a waste of money, and could cause the bullet to fail if it hits an extremity and actually expands. Not to mention the possibility of rimlock.
In a .380 I'd personally go with ball, maybe 102gr Rem GS or Gold Dot if I felt like spending money.
It should go without saying that a 9mm or larger is a better choice.
I've seen my share of shootings, and penetration is paramount, especially in light calibers.
In .32, hollow points are a waste of money, and could cause the bullet to fail if it hits an extremity and actually expands. Not to mention the possibility of rimlock.
In a .380 I'd personally go with ball, maybe 102gr Rem GS or Gold Dot if I felt like spending money.
It should go without saying that a 9mm or larger is a better choice.
Erich
Member
LOL!
Most amusing!Now what if you are using a .32ACP Seecamp that recommends Silvertips (although that recommendation has recently changed)? All their recommendations are JHP's. With this specific gun using Silvertips there was no issue of rimlock (that I am aware of). Would you still recommend FMJ's?
With respect, I have long in 6.35/7.65mm the "Semi-Rim" in lathe removed (A "True-Rimless" Cartridge-Case). This "Semi-Rimless" was/is "Bad Idea" upon inception.
WILL function, yet why utilise, is unneeded.
As to "Expansion in Arm" Penetration-Limiting, who amongst You will exactly ONE Round in Defence fire, stop to results observe?
Within some 1/4-1/3 Second of time, Second and subsequent Rounds should the target have struck. This "Failure to Penetrate having Arm struck" seems stuff of fevered imagination.
As illustration, "Boxing". Does "Boxer" One Punch only make then stop? No, He strikes until opponent down. One shoots until threat neutralised.
WILL function, yet why utilise, is unneeded.
As to "Expansion in Arm" Penetration-Limiting, who amongst You will exactly ONE Round in Defence fire, stop to results observe?
Within some 1/4-1/3 Second of time, Second and subsequent Rounds should the target have struck. This "Failure to Penetrate having Arm struck" seems stuff of fevered imagination.
As illustration, "Boxing". Does "Boxer" One Punch only make then stop? No, He strikes until opponent down. One shoots until threat neutralised.
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