.32 and .380, FMJ or JHP?

[Morgan]

And how many Languages have You?

One, and a fairly firm command of it.

This "Failure to Penetrate having Arm struck" seems stuff of fevered imagination.

Just how many shootings have you personally investigated?

I'll say it again - penetration is paramount in defensive ammunition. You may have to shoot through a raised arm (6" or so), or shoot a heavily clothed, fat, or muscled person. Then you've got a good 6" (or more, depending on the angle) from impact to the good stuff (major arteries, heart, and best of all the spine, but you need extra oomph to punch through the armor). 12" is a minimum level of penetration for serious defensive use - I want more.

With this specific gun using Silvertips there was no issue of rimlock (that I am aware of). Would you still recommend FMJ's?

Yep. If by some miracle the Silvertip actually expands you won't get adequate penetration. In this case, ball is cheaper and better.

The .32 is a neat backup or deep concealment round, with a P32 or Seecamp, but it isn't really a fighting cartridge.

The .380 has become the red-headed stepchild of defense cartridges with the advent of 9mm pistols the same size and weight of the .380's. Unless you're just in love with the gun (Mustang Pocketlite, anyone?) I'd recommend a PM9 or 642 for backup/deep concealment use.

 

[AZ Heat]

Thank you for your replies!

I will start investigating different FMJ's to see what works good in my Seecamp. (Any suggestions?) I do like the .32ACP Seecamp over J-Frame and PM9 because the Seecamp is very small in the front pocket of dress pants while at work. Everything else stands out like a sore thumb.

I am still torn on the .380ACP issue of FMJ or JHP. I was wanting to get a Kel-Tec 3AT or Seecamp .380 to replace my Seecamp .32, which is why I am still lingering on this question.

Thanks again!

 

[David4516]

I almost always use JHPs, even in my wimpy little .25ACP Beretta...

I don't have much experiance with .380, but I've done alot of informal tests with 9mm Makarov (aka 9X18 Mak), and I think that JHPs are the way to go for sure in this caliber...

I've done tests with water jugs too, and suprisingly I got similar results with both calibers (.25ACP and 9mm Mak). Both would penatriat 2 jugs all the way, and both expanded reliably.

I was testing with Hornady XTP ammo for both calibers, and both had a velcoity of around 1000 FPS, give or take...

Of course the 9mm Mak made the jug move around a whole lot more than the .25 did...

The .25s expanded to about .32 cal, and the Mak rounds expanded to just under .60 cal

I'm not sure what I want to do with the .25ACP, hollow points in this caliber will expand, but even then they still don't to much dammage... so I'm not sure if JHPs really are better than FMJs...

Edited to add:

Both of my test loads were my own handloads using Bullseye powder and CCI primers...

In the .25ACP I used 35 gr bullets and 1.7 gr of powder, chronographed about about 985 FPS

In the 9mm Mak I used 95 gr bullets and 4.1 gr of powder, about 1040 FPS

I might be a little off on the velocitys, I have it written down somewhere... but I think thats what I was getting...

Also, my dad has a Makarov in .380 and he likes to shoot Remington Golden-Sabers, he also did some water jug tests with this round, and his results were very close to my 9mm Mak...

 

[jc2]

People--there's a whole lot of difference between a 2 pound jug of water and a 200 pound felon. What a round does to a 2 pound jug a water tells you absolutely NOTHING about how it will perform against a 200 pound felon.

 

[niemand]

quote:
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And how many Languages have You?
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One, and a fairly firm command of it.

I suffer embarrassment, having but Three to Speak.


quote:
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This "Failure to Penetrate having Arm struck" seems stuff of fevered imagination.
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Just how many shootings have you personally investigated?

Define; "Investigate"?

Personally? (On-Scene) Excess of One-Hundred. Data-Base at One point over Ten-Thousand contained.

You seem to (At least wish) concept of "Dynamics" to ignore. One Does NOT "Fire Once, Stop and Observe". Thus Your "Projectile by Arm Halted" somewhat specious/artificial. (Have this heard from some chappie fancies Himself "Expert", Had it upon Business-Card printed, must be so eh?)

Additionally, RE: Penetration, I state again, One cannot simply as Dogma this "Promote".

One to "9x19mm" returns. Penetrates well, without great effect. One could "Armour-Piercing" fire, would "Penetrate", does not mean "Will cause Hostile-Action to cease". Having individuals with "Military Issue, Fully-Enveloped 7.62x51" post-shooting continue, (It did indeed "Penetrate") yet "Fall Down NOW" when "Specialty Loading" utilised, One might possibly realise "Penetration" merely Factor not end.

Ballistics is Science not "Religion". And yes, "Other Gods" than "Penetration" exist.

 

[niemand]

Addendum:

Perhaps "Too Harsh" in "Penetration Argument" rejecting, I do note possibility of "Erring in opposite extreme".

Example; Recall Anyone utterly ghastly "Thunder-Zap"? (By "P.T. Davis, Second-Chance" as well "Dear Massad" flogged).

.38 Calibre, Plastic-Projectile general form "Reversed 148 Grain Hollow-Base Wadcutter" style loading.

Would not in unclad Gelatine more than 4.0 Centimetres Penetrate. Useless. (Exception; Was wonderful "Muzzle-Flash Load", great demonstration "What One should NOT do")

 

[gazpacho]

My choice of FMJ or JHP vary with each firearm, and even in the magazine.

For instance, my Kel-Tec P32 is loaded with 1 Corbon in the chamber as well as the top round in the magazine, followed by 7 Sellier & Bellot FMJ (magazine extension). In my (very) rudimentary testing, these were the consistantly fastest rounds out of my P32s. In general, .32acp isn't a very good JHP expander until out get into the longer barrels, 3.5" and longer, and even then I'd say it's less than adequate. Obviously, the FMJ won't expand at all, but the reason I follow up with 7 S&Bs is the problem of rimlock. My number one concern with any defensive firearm is that the bullet leaves the gun when I want it to, and the next round is made ready to fly also. All other concerns are secondary.

For .380acp, the results are similar. The 380 has never been a reliable expander, but the longer the barrel, the better the results. I have found (researched and tested) that the 380 P+ Gold Dot round fired from a 3.5" barrel produces good results as far as expansion goes.

Out of short barrels, either round is a crap shoot.

 

[horge]

.380 ACP
--
Remington Golden Saber JHP for home.
Armscor FMJ for the road (that is, if I were to carry)

 

[Onmilo]

Again I say, ef em jay!

 

[carpettbaggerr]

Willkommen zur Landstraße, Niemand.


Huh, I never realized Yoda was German.

 

[MR.G]

What about the .380 WINCHESTER white box, jacketed with the flat point? Are these any good ?

 

[niemand]

(Quote)

Willkommen zur Landstraße, Niemand.


Huh, I never realized Yoda was German.

Danke für das Willkommen!

This "Yoda", 190 Centimetres, 107 Kilogrammes. Green? No. Only "Green" is Yankee lads jealousy, My success with Yankgirls.

 

[Newton]

....and the invasion of Poland one assumes.



There has never been a single study of Pathology, actual shootings, or terminal ballistics that has ever shown superior results from FMJ in any caliber. The more power, the bigger the difference. The advantage enjoyed by JHPs is inevitably less significant in milder calibers.

Always choose a high quality JHP over FMJ, it shouldn't even be an issue worth arguing over, but thanks to those penetration fanatics at the FBI and the fact that people have died from a single .32ACP FMJ hit to a vital area, while others have survived half a dozen hits from a 230 JHP .45ACP, serve to muddy the waters enough for this to still be an issue.

Load your .32 with Corbon, and load your .380 with Golden Saber or Gold Dot, just make sure it's reliable with them.

Leave the FMJs for the range.

This is being just my 2 cents young Skywalker, the dark side, strong it is.


Newton

 

[niemand]

(quote)

Newton ....and the invasion of Poland one assumes.

Poland? I am remembering perhaps some Land South von "Danzig" as well "Koeningsberg" as "Slavic" land considered......

Leave then attempts "Japes". "Yoda" amused First Ten-Thousand times heard.

Of course then, should You wish "Polish Military Success" to "Discuss", should only a Second take......

 

[halvey]

I'll chime in here:

I use .380 FMJ for my P3AT because I can get on target with it the best. FMJ or JHP in this gun I feel a bit undergunned, but it's a backup, not my primary gun.

JHP's expanding in water jugs is no big deal. JHP's expand well in water. The better test is through clothing into wet paper or better yet jel. I've read a bunch of Dave R's posts and he makes the case for JHP's much better than shooting into jugs. I'd feel better about using JHP's based on his conclusions.

That said, I'm still carrying FMJ for now because if you shoot someone from the side through their arm, I am not convinced it will penetrate enough into the vitals. I've done informal testing shooting through treated wood (best way to simulate bone I can think of) and the results are not good.

I plan on working up my own loads, FMJ and JHP and make my own conclusions.

By the way: what is the deal with some posters putting just about everything in quotation marks?

 

[WEPS]

lmao, this is too funny! but shame on you guy's for making fun of him.

 

[Bart Noir]

Ditto what WEPS wrote.

(And what does WEPS stand for?) This forum has a high standard of civility. That is not met when a person who didn't grow up speaking English does his or her best, and then is ridiculed. And the remarks about Poland are uncalled for, at least until we have an indication whether "niemand" supports the actions of Hitler. Also we should remember that Prussia is part of Poland these days. The borders sure moved around over the centuries.

I find that Nirgendwo is part of the title of a movie. What other significance does it have?

Bart Noir
Whose daughter studies in Bonn.

 

[niemand]

I elucidate;

1. "Political Nature" Do not in ANY "Government" believe, Of a certainty Not "Fascists". (Here You "Hitler" as well any other "Dictatorial type" insert).

2. "Niemand" as well "Nirgendwo" of amusement. "Niemand von Nirgendwo" in "Not best Deutsch" "No-One from Nowhere" is. Klar?

"Quotes" as needed, precision.

I will not "Impoliteness" begin, often will should One such "Shocking Bad Manners" display, end.

Respects

 

[WEPS]

Bart Noir

weps stands for weapons, im a gunnersmate in the navy so i thought it fit.

 

[mete]

A long time ago after experiments on woodchuks and feral dogs I realized that I didn't want to bet my life on a 380, much less a 32. Recently I heard of a number of cases where a 380 failed to penetrate the sternum !! So 9mm is the minimum and is available in small packages like the Kahr.