Suomipoika
Member
Has anyone ever tried armor piercing bullets on .357? How they work on pistol and how much they penetrate?
.357 AP-bullets
- Thread starter Suomipoika
- Start date
- Status
Snowdog
Member
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2002
- Messages
- 4,608
I recall a .357magnum with a hardened core (steel?) and teflon jacket (to protect the rifling I assume). I believe it was made by KTW.
My question is, where ever would you buy AP .357 ammunition... oh yeah, and why?
Edit: Just saw you're from Finland. I suppose steel-core pistol ammunition could be kosher there.
My question is, where ever would you buy AP .357 ammunition... oh yeah, and why?
Edit: Just saw you're from Finland. I suppose steel-core pistol ammunition could be kosher there.
Suomipoika
Member
All AP-ammunition is illegal here, but if you have ERVA-papers (ERVA = ERityisen VAarallinen = Very Dangerous) you can buy 'em. But they don't give these papers to anyone (at least i haven't heard that anyone ever got these, exeot the collectors) and if you get them you can't find a shop that sells AP-ammo. You have to make the ammo for yourself.
Walosi
Member
KTW ammo was introduced at a time when body armor was being seen more often in the Fla. drug wars. One incident from a Miami paper related a police stop of a white van with hanger bars in the back, with some two dozen vests on them. The originals were machined bronze, with a teflon coating to protect the rifling, as noted. Later, other cores were tried. This ammo was sold ONLY to law enforcement, on a department purchase order or a letter signed by the chief, but it quickly ignited brushfires in the tiny dry minds such as Schumers',and became the dreaded "cop killer bullet". It never killed a cop, but the buzz-word stayed alive, and is even applied to the Federal Nyclad, because "the coating helps the bullet slide through the Kevlar fibers of a police vest". I've even heard some officers repeat this poppycock. As for actual use, itmight have come in handy for the officers involved in the No. Hollywood shootout with the bod-armored bank robbers, but everyday usefulness would be rare to non-existent. Over-penetration and ricochets would rule out "in-gun" carry, and a spare mag full would just be more weight to haul around.
Suomipoika
Member
Those bronze bullets could be made easily with the_machine_that_spins_the_object_very_fast_and_then_you_can_shape_it. Hardened steel core inside lead could be also pretty good(?)
BTW, is there any API-bullets on .357?
BTW, is there any API-bullets on .357?
Walosi
Member
"The machine that spins the object very fast..." is a lathe, in English. I've studied English for nearly 70 years, and you're doing as well as I am 
"AP" bullets are also illegal here. In handguns, their application is so limited as to make them almost useless, or at least to the average shooter. Military and LEO units, like SWAT, use rifle calibers that are much more efficient at defeating soft body armor than any handgun round. Good handguns, premium ammo, training and practice, practice, practice should make an AP handgun round nothing more than a curiosity. Machining the bullets and handloading the rounds is possible, but it is very much an exercise in futility, and still illegal.
"AP" bullets are also illegal here. In handguns, their application is so limited as to make them almost useless, or at least to the average shooter. Military and LEO units, like SWAT, use rifle calibers that are much more efficient at defeating soft body armor than any handgun round. Good handguns, premium ammo, training and practice, practice, practice should make an AP handgun round nothing more than a curiosity. Machining the bullets and handloading the rounds is possible, but it is very much an exercise in futility, and still illegal.Suomipoika
Member
Has anyone any info about penetration on .357 AP-bullets in steel? In wood?
HankB
Member
Not so. The originals were a tungsten alloy called "Kennertium" after one of the KTW founders. Being around 50% denser than lead and extremely hard, they provided excellent performance. The switch to bronze was made to reduce cost and simplify manufacture.
"Metal-piercing" ammo for calibers like .357 Magnum dates back more than half a century. I have an old (1947) "Western Ammunition Handbook" that devotes several pages to both .357 and .38 Special loads. I remember seeing the .357 loads on store shelves before AP handgun ammo was outlawed by "cop killer bullet" legislation. They were basically 158 grain lead bullets with a conical copper nose. The metal piercing .38 bullets were zinc, or had a heavy zinc jacket. My father once put one of the .357 loads through an old railroad tie.
Supposedly the late Elgin Gates used one of the .357 loads to "brain" an angry African Cape Buffalo that had "treed" him during one of his safaris.
An old issue of "Law Enforcement Handgun Digest" had an article on making AP bullets - IIRC it called for using a steel core in a conventional jacket. I believe they penetrated 1/4" of steel. (Mild steel, not armor plate.)
Dan Forrester
Member
My idea for AP
Here’s my idea for AP ammo in any caliber: Buy some FMJ in whatever caliber you choose, so long as they have exposed lead bases. Use a soldering iron to melt the lead and pour it out. Allow the empty jackets to cool and then fill it with an epoxy. Use one of these super light, stronger than steel epoxies to fill the back and let it dry. Use the fastest burning powder you can find in the loading manual. It should have the same friction coefficient, and the slug would be lighter so I think it would be safe. I don’t know if this is legal or not, it doesn’t have steel (or any other metals) in the core?
In my own experience (and many others) speed is what penetrates hardened objects.
Dan
Here’s my idea for AP ammo in any caliber: Buy some FMJ in whatever caliber you choose, so long as they have exposed lead bases. Use a soldering iron to melt the lead and pour it out. Allow the empty jackets to cool and then fill it with an epoxy. Use one of these super light, stronger than steel epoxies to fill the back and let it dry. Use the fastest burning powder you can find in the loading manual. It should have the same friction coefficient, and the slug would be lighter so I think it would be safe. I don’t know if this is legal or not, it doesn’t have steel (or any other metals) in the core?
In my own experience (and many others) speed is what penetrates hardened objects.
Dan
Suomipoika
Member
They are pretty easy to make yourself. Is "solderin iron" red-hot iron?
I think that better way is: Take a FMJ bullet, drill (or waht you say when you mean the fast spinning piece of metal taht can make holes to wood, metal etc.) and then drill a cavity to bullet, then take a piece of tempered steel and insert it to the cavity.
I think that better way is: Take a FMJ bullet, drill (or waht you say when you mean the fast spinning piece of metal taht can make holes to wood, metal etc.) and then drill a cavity to bullet, then take a piece of tempered steel and insert it to the cavity.
Snowdog
Member
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2002
- Messages
- 4,608
Suomipoika,
If you try that method, you might want to make sure the slug doesn't have an exposed base (if you're talking about a jacketed bullet).
If the jacket isn't bonded (and few are) and a hole is drilled in the tip of a jacketed slug with an exposed base (as many FMJs are), you might end up with the lead core pushing through the hole you drilled upon firing, while the jacket hangs back in the barrel against the lands. You might not realized this happened until you fire the next shot.
I remember reading about this warning in a gun rag back in the mid-80's when someone wrote to the editor/columnist concering home-made JHPs made from typical hardball ammunition.
Just a friendly piece of advice.
If you try that method, you might want to make sure the slug doesn't have an exposed base (if you're talking about a jacketed bullet).
If the jacket isn't bonded (and few are) and a hole is drilled in the tip of a jacketed slug with an exposed base (as many FMJs are), you might end up with the lead core pushing through the hole you drilled upon firing, while the jacket hangs back in the barrel against the lands. You might not realized this happened until you fire the next shot.
I remember reading about this warning in a gun rag back in the mid-80's when someone wrote to the editor/columnist concering home-made JHPs made from typical hardball ammunition.
Just a friendly piece of advice.
Suomipoika
Member
Do you mean that tip must be untouched? I ment, that you drill a hole almost to the tip of bullet, but not throught.
Snowdog
Member
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2002
- Messages
- 4,608
The article I'm referring to seemed to stress the fact that breaching the tip of the jacket (drilling down to the lead) could create a condition which may allow the gas pressure to force the core against that hole in the jacket, enlarging it (tearing it open) and forcing the lead core out that hole as all the friction is on the jacket from the lands.
Again, this was read in a gun rag by a teenager in the mid-80's... probably at a 7-11 or something. It just caught my attention enough to remember it to this day.
Good luck and stay safe.
Again, this was read in a gun rag by a teenager in the mid-80's... probably at a 7-11 or something. It just caught my attention enough to remember it to this day.
Good luck and stay safe.
Suomipoika
Member
Now i understund. So, some epoxy or something like that to the base of bullet so the jacket won't stuck in barrel?
George Hill
Member
Did KTW make any ammo for .357 or are folks just loading the 9mm slugs into .357 cases?
From my understanding these KTW 9MM loads were not that impressive.
Your better off with a CZ-52 for penetration.
From my understanding these KTW 9MM loads were not that impressive.
Your better off with a CZ-52 for penetration.
HankB
Member
Geroge, KTW made the ammo in at least .357, .38 Spec, and 9mm P. Pictures I've seen showed the early revolver rounds were pretty conical, but the 9mm was a truncated cone. They only sold "live" ammo to police, although I understand "inert" rounds were available to collectors for $1 each. (This was circa 1970.)
There are many ways of easily making what is effectively "AP" ammo. I'm SO glad we have a law that keeps would-be "cop killers" from doing so.
There are many ways of easily making what is effectively "AP" ammo. I'm SO glad we have a law that keeps would-be "cop killers" from doing so.
Suomipoika
Member
Somekind of sabot-rounds could be also pretty good? Are they made anythin else, but rifles ?
Sleuth
Member
AP in handgus is mostly a waste of time and money. I know, I have some original KTW, fired a few rounds and was disapointed in the penetration. Carry a rifle and be done with it.
I will PM you with how to make some simple AP you can do yourself. No reason to give this info to the BG's, some of whom have computers.
I will PM you with how to make some simple AP you can do yourself. No reason to give this info to the BG's, some of whom have computers.
Last edited:
Trisha
Member
Kiitos, dear boy - and you're doing very well in this difficult language!
'Varmit Hunting' went out of style a few decades ago - those red stars on their foreheads were such tempting targets, according to my cousin!
I asume you have good manners, yes? Go find an old Karelian up north who will take you shooting, show you his collection of ears and fill your head with talk of sharp puukkos on moonless nights - and you'll find a treasure-trove of simple answers to all of your questions.
I pray you are not in trouble. The mother-bat still flies above the tundra, keeping watch, you know that, yes?
Consult with family before you consider doing anything rash, something that might bee seen as inappropriate, yes?
Your family name, and that of your home is always important.
Trisha, of Rovaniemi
'Varmit Hunting' went out of style a few decades ago - those red stars on their foreheads were such tempting targets, according to my cousin!
I asume you have good manners, yes? Go find an old Karelian up north who will take you shooting, show you his collection of ears and fill your head with talk of sharp puukkos on moonless nights - and you'll find a treasure-trove of simple answers to all of your questions.
I pray you are not in trouble. The mother-bat still flies above the tundra, keeping watch, you know that, yes?
Consult with family before you consider doing anything rash, something that might bee seen as inappropriate, yes?
Your family name, and that of your home is always important.
Trisha, of Rovaniemi
Suomipoika
Member
I am not going to kill any cops or criminals, just curiosity.
Trisha
Member
I understand the intensity of curiosity - it seems to be a common trait of our people; but I would have been remiss not to remind you of the responsibility of knowledge.
The political landscape has changed much since I was young, and in many ways, not for the better, I think; so it is up to us to act with forethought and gather wisdom as we grow old.
I encourage you to seek out and befriend those who still live who saw the line of tanks approach, when the invaders could defeat us no other way, share a mug of kalia with them.
The joy of owning a firearm will become more clear than you might now imagine, might become more precious.
You would be astonished to learn of .357 performance here at my home, at over 3,000 meters elevation, with VV N110 loads, from a revolver! I take delight in shooting bowling pins at 25 meters, and on a good day, out to 50 meters with no perceptable bullet trajectory drop! That is fun! That is endlessly fascinating to me!
Take your curiosity to the Sako factory! I believe you will be welcomed there! Lapua people may also be willing to spend time with you, yes? Either is not a difficult journey.
Trisha
The political landscape has changed much since I was young, and in many ways, not for the better, I think; so it is up to us to act with forethought and gather wisdom as we grow old.
I encourage you to seek out and befriend those who still live who saw the line of tanks approach, when the invaders could defeat us no other way, share a mug of kalia with them.
The joy of owning a firearm will become more clear than you might now imagine, might become more precious.
You would be astonished to learn of .357 performance here at my home, at over 3,000 meters elevation, with VV N110 loads, from a revolver! I take delight in shooting bowling pins at 25 meters, and on a good day, out to 50 meters with no perceptable bullet trajectory drop! That is fun! That is endlessly fascinating to me!
Take your curiosity to the Sako factory! I believe you will be welcomed there! Lapua people may also be willing to spend time with you, yes? Either is not a difficult journey.
Trisha
- Status
