.357 HD/SD mixed load strategy?

[Isaac-1]

Lately I have been giving thought to moving to a mixed load for my bedside 6 shot 4 inch .357 Revolver and I wanted to know what you think. My concern is firing a full power .357 round (current load is Federal Hydra-Shok) indoors potentially at night in the dark, then being stunned by the effect of the first round. Therefore I am considering switching to something a littler tamer for the first 2 or 3 rounds, followed by full power .357 rounds in the rest of the cylinder, and in the speed loader clipped to the gun holster. Most likely candidate would be Horandy CD 110 Gr 38 Spl for the first couple of rounds, because I have a box on hand, and it is what the local gun shop sells that is not cheap ammo.

Any thoughts?

Ike

 

[Vern Humphrey]

There's an old saying, "You don't run out of ammo, you run out of time." You want your first hit -- which may very well be your only hit -- to do the job.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Nope.

Practice with your HD load as much as you can afford. Load that up in your HD gun, leave it alone.

 

[cackalak]

I guess I'm confused as to why you'd need 357 rounds to begin with? Will you be shooting the intruders from 5 rooms away through the wall? I'd say stick to 38 sp rounds. Too many people in the house and around the neighborhood to be loading up 357's for me.

 

[oldbear]

There's an old saying, "You don't run out of ammo, you run out of time."

I've never heard that one before, but it does make lots of sense..

 

[Isaac-1]

My thought is I don't want to be blinded and deafened by the first shot or two that may occur a I was awakened out of a sound sleep. By the time shots 3, 4, 5, etc happen I will be somewhat more alert and my ears will likely be ringing a bit, so a full power round may not seem a loud, it is also likely that I may need that extra penetration that .357 has to offer.

 

[beatledog7]

Practice as you would perform
Shoot the most ballsy round you can shoot consistently on target. That can never be a round you haven't trained with since w/o practice you simply don't know.

You can't miss fast enough to protect yourself.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I don't see the concept. Do you plan to miss with the first 2-3 shots or something? Not me, I go into it planning on hitting with the first shot. I also load magnum cartridges in magnum guns. I don't see the point of going into a gunfight intentionally carrying a lessor round when you don't have to....I also practice/qualify with magnums. I don't believe in solely practicing with .38 wadcutters and then loading up with full tilt .357's for carry.

 

[Isaac-1]

I can see that point of view also, and yes I agree with hitting what I am aiming at, but I am also concerned with being blinded/stunned by the first shot and not being able to see bad guy #2.

 

[627PCFan]

If you change rounds amid cylnder, you change your vertical POI..and most likely your horizontal POI as well. Do you think your going to keep track of what round your on, and where its going to hit in the middle of a gun fight?

You wouldnt change rifle bullets in the middle of a hunt. Dont do it here either. If flash is a problem, get into handloading and experiment with powders.

 

[Rexster]

I fired a full-pressure 125-grain Federal JHP at night, defensively, and could see and hear fine the whole time. This was outdoors.

Indoors, in a small room, a 145-grain Silvertip HP, a not-quite full-pressure load, was fired near me, a short distance to the side of my main field of view, but still within my peripheral field of view. I could still seen fine immediately afterward, and though my ears did not like the experience, I could still hear OK. This was an unexpected ND, so there was not flight-or-fight reflex to mitigate anything. The room was not dark, so I am relating this for the hearing aspect.

Keep in mind that premium defensive ammo, as opposed to cheap practice ammo, is loaded with flash-retardant in the powder mixture. Now, a .357 Magnum, at full pressure will certanly be less pleasant at fire at nght than the typical .45 ACP load. If I wanted to optimize for indoor gunfighting, with handguns, I might reach for a .45 rather than a .357 Magnum, all else being equal, but at this stage of my life, training time is not abundant, and I am better-practiced with DA shooting, so I don't keep my 1911 handy for HD.

I use .40 duty pistols, and qual at night, because I work night shift. (.40 is the standard duty cartridge at my PD; we have some latitiude in our choice of duty pistols.) In my opinion, the .40 is about as obnoxious to shoot at night as .357 Mag. The .357 is a bit louder, but flash is about the same.

My issue with loading milder ammo as the first rounds up to bat, is that the first shot I fire is likely to be the most important, and I want it to be the best I have. I may choose something other than .357 Mag weapon, for any number of reasons, but I know what a full-pressure 125-grain JHP will do to an opponent, and unless old age makes me too feeble, I see little reason to carry anything else in a full-sized .357 sixgun that is kept for close-range defense against human predators.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

My issue with loading milder ammo as the first rounds up to bat, is that the first shot I fire is likely to be the most important, and I want it to be the best I have.

You're absolutely right -- if your first round doesn't do the job, you may not survive to fire a second round.

 

[Rexster]

I guess I'm confused as to why you'd need 357 rounds to begin with? Will you be shooting the intruders from 5 rooms away through the wall? I'd say stick to 38 sp rounds. Too many people in the house and around the neighborhood to be loading up 357's for me.

Premium defensive ammo, in the common duty/SD cartridges, is ALL engineered to penetrate to about the same depth in ballistic geleatin and human tissue. The .357 Mag is no more liley to overpenetrate than .38 Special.

Moreover, the classic .357 125-grain JHP, before the era of controlled-expansion bullets, was rather famous for its LOW likelihood of overpenetrating human targets. My opponent, in 1993, was very skinny, and a small guy. He managed to catch, and keep, all but a small amount of the fragmented bullet.

Hunting loads, of course, are usually desgined for deep penetration. Avoid those, of course, for HD.

 

[woad_yurt]

When you use a mixed lot of ammo, consistency suffers; consistency is your friend.

 

[cackalak]

Rexter - Good to know. But what about if you MISS the intended target? That's what I'm mostly concerned about with 357 mags (shooting indoors). Another is muzzle flash in a dark room. I think companies like Buffalo Bore makes flash suppressed 357 mag rounds, but haven't tried them in the dark yet.

I still cannot see any advantage of using 357 mag rounds vs 38. I do love shooting 357 out of my GP and SP, but for home defense? Pass me the 158gr FBI 38 sp.

 

[David E]

I confused by people wanting to "power-down" their defensive ammo. The only valid reason anyone should do that is when they can't control a hotter load.

I'm confused by people keeping a gun for home defense who haven't laid out where their "lanes of fire" are. If the badguy is in front of the wall that has a sleeping child on the other side, then you don't shoot!

I'm also confused by people who are virtually planning to miss their first shot or three.

But I'm mostly confused by people who think they need to fire 2-3 rds TO BECOME ALERT!!!

If you are not alert enough to determine if deadly force is warranted BEFORE you fire the first shot, then DON'T SHOOT!!!!

If that isn't possible, lock the guns up and buy some pepper spray.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I confused by people wanting to "power-down" their defensive ammo. The only valid reason anyone should do that is when they can't control a hotter load.

I'm confused by people keeping a gun for home defense who haven't laid out where their "lanes of fire" are. If the badguy is in front of the wall that has a sleeping child on the other side, then you don't shoot!

I'm also confused by people who are virtually planning to miss their first shot or three.

But I'm mostly confused by people who think they need to fire 2-3 rds TO BECOME ALERT!!!

If you are not alert enough to determine if deadly force is warranted BEFORE you fire the first shot, then DON'T SHOOT!!!!

If that isn't possible, lock the guns up and buy some pepper spray.

How many times have I said it -- people have disasters because they plan to have a disaster. Look at all the threads where people talk themselves into a corner and wind up with a totally inadequate weapon or defensive plan.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I used to load all my home defense guns with magnums. Then I thought about how extremely sensitive my ears are. My girlfriend once woke me up out of a dead sleep, simply by opening her eyes and looking at me. She didn't move a muscle (we discussed that later). My guess is that I could hear the change in her breathing and it woke me up. With ears like that, I think I would be extremely disoriented by firing a full power .357 in my home, in the dark. I have also moved back into town, so I consider magnum rounds to be a bad idea when I have neighbors about 50 feet away. I realize JHP are designed to stop, but I refuse to use a firearm in my home if I know I haven't done everything in my power to avoid collateral damage.

Now outside of my home, I do use full power loads. I realize I may still be disoriented, but it will be less so outside. Also, mountain lions are abundant where I live so .357 is a good option.

I also keep a S&W 460V loaded in my living room. I used to keep it loaded with Corbon .45 Colt+p’s. This even made me a bit nervous living in town.
I have since changed all my in home ammo to Hornady CD. It just seems to be the best balance between stopping power, follow up shot potential do to reduced flash, and collateral damage mitigation. I load my .357 with 110 gr. .38 specials for HD and my 460 with185 gr. .45 Colts. There are many things to consider when choosing your HD ammo. I choose to rely on follow up shot control because I simply think a full power magnum is going to be too disorienting FOR ME in my own home.

If you have a reason to power down your loads, then do so. I would hesitate to mix your loads because you won't be keeping track of which round you are on, and you will likely be surprised by the extra recoil if in a SD situation.

That being said, I practice with both power levels, and make sure I am profficient with both.

Good Luck

 

[David E]

Do people think they are going to be assaulted in bed?

If that did happen, then worrying about muzzle blast/noise won't be my first concern.

More likely, I'd be responding to a suspicious noise. Many renowned trainers recommend electronic earmuffs, making muzzle blast/noise a non-issue.

Over penetration can be a concern in an apartment setting. Carefully planned lanes of fire and/or technique would minimize most of these concerns and maybe eliminate a couple altogether. That said, some calibers or bullet selections work better than others. In an spartment, I'd rather have a 110 JHP .357 over a .38 158 grain load....to back up my shotgun loaded with #6 shot.

But I'd also fire the .357 with the chosen load in an enclosed space so I wouldn't be "disoriented" by it. (you can do this at the range by taking the firing point next to the wall, etc)

 

[MK11]

Things will happen so fast and so close and so violent that the idea of staggering loads is ridiculous. Know what you've got every time and train around the advantages and limitations of what you choose.

 

[451 Detonics]

If someone makes it all the way into your bedroom and is standing over you when you wake up and try for the guns you will likely lose. Simple alarms will give you warning (and likely cure the problem by scaring the intruder away) and with that warning I have time to grab both my gun and Wolf Ears. I can hear better with them these days and won't be deafened. Any handgun other than a 22 is going to ring your ears without protection. Flash from the muzzle can be controlled a bit, company like Cor Bon load with powder that reduces flash as much as possible. As for over-penetration if it is that much of a concern then use Glasers or similar rounds to reduce the risk as much as possible. My bedroom handgun is still loaded with Thunderzaps.

The vast majority of bad guys breaking into houses are not going to be like Sean Connery, they don't know anything about defeating alarm systems. They want to avoid light and noise like the plague.

 

[Old Shooter]

I can see that point of view also, and yes I agree with hitting what I am aiming at, but I am also concerned with being blinded/stunned by the first shot and not being able to see bad guy #2.

Chances are bad guy #2 will be blinded/stunned also. Sounds like you assume bad guy #1 is down and out at that time?

I believe they make low flash ammo for the .357, you might want to check into that. In my limited experience with 9mm at night, I noticed that Remington had more flash than Winchester hard ball ammo, mayby try a few brands at night, use the full bore ammo with the least flash?

 

[Jeb21]

I use 38 special +p as my home defense round of choice. I like the 158 +p lead hollow points the best. I know that I can hit what I am aiming for. I know that my wife can handle the round. It is less likely to overpenetrate than a magnum and the noise and flash willl be less likely to disorient me if fired at night indoors than a magnum. Finally, my follow up shots are faster when I shoot 38 special.

Af for missing, no one plans of missing and every hopes to be able to solve the proble in one shot but I don't see anyone using a single shot weapon for home defense or self defense. I always practice with strings of fire - double tape- triple tap ect . . .

In short I agree with the OP that using 38 special for a hd gun is an excellent idea, but I would keep all of the rounds as 38 special rather than make some of them magnums.

 

[Isaac-1]

Thanks for all the replies on this, I would like to reply to a few points here:

1, The reason I choose this particular model of .357 revolver is that I have fired thousands of rounds through this family of revolvers, and know that even in the dark when I am startled awake that my hands know the layout and there will be less chance of fumbling around drawing or pointing the gun.

2, No one intends to miss on the fist shot, and it is not like a good .38 Spl round is wimpy

3, Yes, I do plan around the idea of having minimal warning from an intrusion until needing a gun in hand, as with my house layout I don't have the luxuary of having a bedroom that is a great distance from the nearest door, my bedroom has a connecting door to the utility room, which then has an door the the outdoors 7 feet away, so someone kicking in the utility room door have the potential of being at the foot of my bed within a couple of seconds..

4, I feel that I may have a higher than average reason to be targeted for personal attack by less than desirable people that may have just got out of long prison terms, because my father who passed away earlier this year was a local district judge for many years. (I am a III so we share the same name)

5, I am well aware of lanes of fire potential, which does not change the limitations enforced by home layout and potential background, I do have a few advantages as well as disatvantages on this, one advantage is my house is of fairly solid construction being over 100 years old and having solid wood walls, a disatvantage is having a somewhat busy 4 lane highway just a few feet from my front door (the sidewalk is 13 ft from my front porch).

 

[psyshack]

I run .38's, .357, 9mm, 45acp, 7.62x25, 7.62x39 and 12ga. as my nightstand or corner weapon.

I know my home better than any other person on earth including my children. And even in the dead of night in a pitch dark no moon camp I have never been totally blinded by a muzzle flash. And would soon be deaf as to loose a battle for my life.

You have to practice draw and presentation / fire from bed and other places that are not seen by your body as a whole as normal. As a matter of fact,,, the wife is out of the house tonight with her sister wont be home until sat. evening. I will take this time to practice from bed dry firing and also use a normally closed pressure switch set under my bed with a 500w work light clamped on the door frame to simulate fire or HID flashlight coming into our bedroom. I will also work with it on three other shooting lanes. And am keeping myself awake as I recover from being sick so I know I'm not at my best after a weeks work with a bad hernia, arthritis and a cold that won't let go. I have to be at my best when I'm at my worse and them some.

I have taught my wife this training insight. While she does not work at it, at the levels I do. She has taken the time to work with it if I'm out of town during the work week or together in the home when we have some time.

It's what we do. And train with our own ammo at the range. We don't have many plinking rounds. We shoot what we will defend our selves with. Anything else is a waste of time, money and energy. OO and we live in a almost free state compared to others..... think your going to crash into or sneak into my home. You will bleed a lot!