.357 HD/SD mixed load strategy?

[PabloJ]

Lately I have been giving thought to moving to a mixed load for my bedside 6 shot 4 inch .357 Revolver and I wanted to know what you think. My concern is firing a full power .357 round (current load is Federal Hydra-Shok) indoors potentially at night in the dark, then being stunned by the effect of the first round. Therefore I am considering switching to something a littler tamer for the first 2 or 3 rounds, followed by full power .357 rounds in the rest of the cylinder, and in the speed loader clipped to the gun holster. Most likely candidate would be Horandy CD 110 Gr 38 Spl for the first couple of rounds, because I have a box on hand, and it is what the local gun shop sells that is not cheap ammo.

Any thoughts?

Ike

Being nice guy that you are perhaps first chamber to be fired should contain blank load as a warning shot?

 

[Strykervet]

I wouldn't do this for HD. But I do this in my 340PD when I pocket carry. The idea is that I am carrying a .38+P, but I have the three .357 just in case. Nice to have the flexibility in that case. I load the 129gr. Hydra-Shok followed by 140gr. Corbon. I'd never do this for HD though, never, and I only carry the little beast when I absolutely cannot strap on the G29 or 27.

The idea, for me anyway, is always a double tap. I want to be able to get off two shots instead of one, which is difficult in a 340PD with full power loads. Hopefully I never need it, but if I do, I would hope those two rounds did the job.

 

[Isaac-1]

I find it interesting that people equate a .38 Spl defensive specialty round with blanks or being under gunned.

 

[Rexster]

Rexter - Good to know. But what about if you MISS the intended target? That's what I'm mostly concerned about with 357 mags (shooting indoors). Another is muzzle flash in a dark room. I think companies like Buffalo Bore makes flash suppressed 357 mag rounds, but haven't tried them in the dark yet.

I still cannot see any advantage of using 357 mag rounds vs 38. I do love shooting 357 out of my GP and SP, but for home defense? Pass me the 158gr FBI 38 sp.

Anything that is capable of adequate penetration in an human opponent is going to penetrate building materials. Moreover, I do not want an opponent to be able to use a door frame or interior wall as cover.

The solution to missed shots is to train to hit an adversary. Training, and discipline.

Realistically, yes, missed shots should be a concern, but rather than worry about missing, concentrate on training to hit.

 

[Brian Williams]

Have you shot a 357 in the house. Try it sometime. A 38 spec will disorient you as well if shooting inside.

 

[AKElroy]

I have gone back and forth on this issue. Like the other posts in this thread, I would not a do not vary my HD loads in the gun. My bedside gun is a win 1300 w/ reduced recoil 9 pellet buck. I practice with it, and I am confident with it.

I have two primary carry guns. A Glock 27 whenever my clothing allows, and a Smith scandium 340 when pocket carry is the only choice. Having fired 3 rounds of actual .357 through this 11 oz gun, I will NEVER train with those loads. Recoil recovery is a joke, asside from being VERY painful to shoot.

That said, I do load my well-practiced 130 gr .38+P loads in the first 4 chambers, and a single 158 gr full-house .357 under the hammer. Since it is the last round fired if needed, recoil recovery will not be a concern. I am now prepared for the coming flames, but it just makes me a little more comfortable having that 'final option" round.

 

[Lucky Derby]

Mixing ammo is generally a bad idea. My bedside revolver is loaded with BB .38 158gr LSWCHP+P, yes the good old FBI load.

However, outside the home, I have two sets of circumstances where I "sort of" mix ammo. I do not mix ammo within a cylinder.

I most often carry one of two .357s as a primary. My BUG is a J frame .38. I load the .357s with magnum ammo. The BUG is of course loaded with .38s. Any spare ammo that I carry is .38 since it will work in either the primary or the BUG.

The second is when I am going in and out of areas where I might need more of a hunting type load with greater penetration for preditory animals, such as when camping. The gun will be loaded with either the HP's or the hunting rounds depending on where I am at the moment, and switched when I transition to an area where the other load might be of greater benefit. IE: I leave the campsite and run into town for supplies, I swap ammo. Swap back when I get back to camp. The other ammo is carried as a reload.

 

[918v]

Mixing ammo is generally a bad idea.

Why?

 

[918v]

I would hesitate to mix your loads because you won't be keeping track of which round you are on, and you will likely be surprised by the extra recoil if in a SD situation.

People who have been in a firefight will tell you they don't pay much attention to noise or recoil. In addition to tunnel vision you also experience tunnel hearing and tunnel feeling.

 

[goon]

For HD I wouldn't mix ammo.
If you're concerned about too much concussion/flash from a short .357, you might try the Speer 135 grain short barrel load or one of the .38 Special loads pushing the 158 grain LSWC-HP. They exist in both standard and +P forms and I'd use them.

In the field, I'm thinking about mixing my ammo but haven't yet. The only thing I've ever had to shoot in self defense was a rabid raccoon. I shot it with a full power .357 load that definitely put it down, but my ears rang for two days afterward and a standard .38 Special load would have worked just as well. So I'm thinking about loading one or two of those in the field with the rest being full power loads.

 

[Scipio Africanus]

Much ado is made of muzzle flash and noise. In a fight, in all likelyhood, your brain will filter out most non-essential input, like muzzleblast, noise, and recoil. Load that revolver with the hardest hitting round you can and practice like your life depends on it.
Good luck.

 

[goon]

But why have so much extra for your brain to filter out.
Shoot an attacker twice with a full power .357 at ten feet and he'll probably quit attacking you.
Use a .38 Special 158 grain LSWC-HP instead and he'll probably quit attacking you.
As you say, much ado about nothing...

 

[Peakbagger46]

I'm going to take a minority view on the switching ammo idea.

I carry a .357 J frame for my BUG (on-duty, too lazy to carry two guns when I'm not at work). I have recently begun carrying a 180g black talon as my last shot in that gun. The first four rounds are loaded with 135g gold dots, nice and easy to shoot for fast follow-up. I like having a full power mag load for that last shot though, I don't have to worry about the kick throwing me off since I will be empty at that point.

Makes sense to me, of course I don't have the same over penetration issues you may have for HD though.

 

[Rexster]

I'm going to take a minority view on the switching ammo idea.

I carry a .357 J frame for my BUG (on-duty, too lazy to carry two guns when I'm not at work). I have recently begun carrying a 180g black talon as my last shot in that gun. The first four rounds are loaded with 135g gold dots, nice and easy to shoot for fast follow-up. I like having a full power mag load for that last shot though, I don't have to worry about the kick throwing me off since I will be empty at that point.

Makes sense to me, of course I don't have the same over penetration issues you may have for HD though.

Now, this particular mixed-load system does make sense! I am not saying I will adopt this, myself, but those who are concerned about recoil affecting the speed of the next shot will at least not have that as a factor if only the last shot is a "hot" load. Recoil just helps get the muzzle vertical for the start of the reload process, in this case.

If I have a good, firm, high-on-the-backstrap grip on my SP101or GP100, I don't perceive recoil to adversely affect my ability to place follow-up shots, but I can visualize having recoil issues with a J-frame, or perhaps a K-frame or Speed Six fitted with small grips. (I have not tested the J-snub part of the
theory, because I will not voluntarily fire a J-frame loaded with Magnums.)

When I have mixed .357 loads, it was generally different loads in different guns, for a particular reason. One example would be hard-cast loads in one sixgun, and anti-personnel JHPs on another. Another example would be heavier bullets in a fixed-sight revolver, to better shoot to point of aim, and a different load in an adjustable-sight sixgun.

 

[Yahtzee4U]

To much overthinking here. As a few people have mentioned, when you realize your life is on the line your adrenaline kicks into overdrive and nothing else matters. We have all seen that happen in things like car accidents exc. My point being that a guns muzzle flash and sound is going to be the last thing you remember, you'll be clicking on an empty cylinder before you even realize you shot all six rounds. Use what you are comfortable with, if you can shoot six .38 specials more quickly and accurately during practice than a full power magnum load, use that. If you're still concerned with having that extra 200 or 300 fps that a magnum provides, and can handle recoil, use that. Just hit something, with something, the criminal isn't going to stop and ridicule you for using a .38 special on him.

 

[cackalak]

Anything that is capable of adequate penetration in an human opponent is going to penetrate building materials. Moreover, I do not want an opponent to be able to use a door frame or interior wall as cover.

The solution to missed shots is to train to hit an adversary. Training, and discipline.

Realistically, yes, missed shots should be a concern, but rather than worry about missing, concentrate on training to hit.

Yes, I hope we're all training to hit than miss! Still not sold on 357 being a good HD round. You even just said that anything capable of going through a human can go through building material. So if a .38 can go through a human being, and by your statement, through building material(like a door or wall a bad guy is using for cover), why would you need 357?

I'm not knocking anyone for using 357 loads. Heck, if that's what you like and are most accurate with, go for it. I just know for me and everyone I know, .38's are easier to shoot, especially with follow up shots, and are plenty powerful for HD.

 

[OldCavSoldier]

In my case:
1. The master bedroom is on the second floor. Nobody is gonna be coming through my window.
2. I am a very light sleeper.
3. I have two large dogs that alert on anything that does not sound normal and have always gone directly to investigate the door/window the sound is coming from...giving me time to get some shorts on put the cell phone and speed-loader in my pocket, draw the handgun (with 125gr +P .38SPL loads aboard) and flashlight before I go to investigate.
4. The dogs will most likely draw fire from any armed gremlins, further alerting me as to the nature of the threat

Several times in years past, the sound of the dogs alerting was enough to "disuade" any potential gremlins from inquiring further. Once, when a gremlin was looking through a first floor window that I had carelessly left the shade up, he got 120+ lumens right in the eyes...he was still bumping into trees when the police arrived a few minutes later.

 

[Ole Coot]

My thought is I don't want to be blinded and deafened by the first shot or two that may occur a I was awakened out of a sound sleep. By the time shots 3, 4, 5, etc happen I will be somewhat more alert and my ears will likely be ringing a bit, so a full power round may not seem a loud, it is also likely that I may need that extra penetration that .357 has to offer.

I agree. A 357 do make a big noise and shoots flame out the front and sides. Probably scare both of you. Stick with the 38, I like the LSWCHP 158g.

 

[wrs840]

As much as I like .357 revolvers, for "nightstand" type duty, I like a 9mm 18-or-so capacity, loaded with non-+P "low flash" 124gr Golden Saber hollowpoints. It just makes sense to me, though I will admit I've done zero indoor dark-time shooting, ear-protection or not.

Maybe the more experienced can tell me where my thought-process is off-base, I welcome it.

Thanks

 

[Rexster]

Yes, I hope we're all training to hit than miss! Still not sold on 357 being a good HD round. You even just said that anything capable of going through a human can go through building material. So if a .38 can go through a human being, and by your statement, through building material(like a door or wall a bad guy is using for cover), why would you need 357?

I'm not knocking anyone for using 357 loads. Heck, if that's what you like and are most accurate with, go for it. I just know for me and everyone I know, .38's are easier to shoot, especially with follow up shots, and are plenty powerful for HD.

"Going though a human" is certainly not the only criteria for a defensive load. I will continue to use Magnums until the infirmities of old age compel me to down-grade, and will start with my smaller
snubbies first, and only working up to the heavier sixguns later, if necessary. I am not meaning to imply that .357 Magnum is necessarily ideal for HD. I think I said earlier, in this thread or another, that I would probably choose .45 ACP for handgun hunting of people indoors in the dark, all else being equal. Things are not equal right now, because I must use .40 DA auto pistols at work, and my precious little training time is spent with DA handguns, so my 1911 is not kept at the ready these days. (.40 defensive loads are about as obnoxious indoors as .357 Mag, in my opinion.)

For that matter, defense is best accomplished with a long gun, but I don't want
to derail this thread in that direction, except to say that a Vang-Comped shotgun not only reduces 12 gauge recoil, and gets the blast further from one's ears, but tends to suppress flash a bit, too. Of course, handling a shotgun indoors deserves a thread of it's own, in the shotgun section of THR, rather than here in this thread.

Bottom line, for me, is that in a heavy, large/medium-framed sixgun, especially with the lugged barrels of my GP100 sixguns, magnum recoil is not an issue, and I see little need to downgrade to Specials.

 

[goon]

Yes, I hope we're all training to hit than miss! Still not sold on 357 being a good HD round. You even just said that anything capable of going through a human can go through building material. So if a .38 can go through a human being, and by your statement, through building material(like a door or wall a bad guy is using for cover), why would you need 357?

I'm not knocking anyone for using 357 loads. Heck, if that's what you like and are most accurate with, go for it. I just know for me and everyone I know, .38's are easier to shoot, especially with follow up shots, and are plenty powerful for HD.

Bullet construction is everything. The right bullet will deliver all of its energy into the target, fully expand, and stop before exiting.
There isn't anything wrong with a good .38 Special load for HD in my opinion, but there's nothing wrong with the right .357 load either - if you can handle it.

 

[Owen Sparks]

My thought is I don't want to be blinded and deafened by the first shot or two that may occur a I was awakened out of a sound sleep.

That is why I keep a pair of muffs with my bead side shotgun.