357 load development and casual observations

I'm guessing the button nose wadcutters need relief in the center to seat correctly???? I have a flat swc stem but pushing on just the button might be a bulge issue?????
Not in my experience, no. The concave stems work fine for me with BNWC and SWC. The rim of the stem has something to grab. A lot of WFN are actually RFN - look at the profile of the bullet - which leaves no flat surface for the concave stems to catch on evenly.

I have never had to use enough pressure when seating any lead bullets to cause deformation. If I did encounter that kind of resistance I would stop and find the source. Seating lead should never require enough force on the nose to flatten any part of the bullet.
 
earlier in the year I picked up a new Rossi 38/357 carbine with 16 inch barrel, in stainless steel I have to say is as pretty a little carbine as I have ever handled. Any one worked up any loads for carbines yet?
About the only thing I did is replace the safety, which I kept in case have to send it back, with a plug, and am in the process of replacing the mag plug with a stainless one instead of plastic, and replaced the rear sight
 
earlier in the year I picked up a new Rossi 38/357 carbine with 16 inch barrel, in stainless steel I have to say is as pretty a little carbine as I have ever handled. Any one worked up any loads for carbines yet?
About the only thing I did is replace the safety, which I kept in case have to send it back, with a plug, and am in the process of replacing the mag plug with a stainless one instead of plastic, and replaced the rear sight
Max is max. Revolver or rifle. R92's are more fun than a barrel of monkey's
 
earlier in the year I picked up a new Rossi 38/357 carbine with 16 inch barrel, in stainless steel I have to say is as pretty a little carbine as I have ever handled. Any one worked up any loads for carbines yet?
About the only thing I did is replace the safety, which I kept in case have to send it back, with a plug, and am in the process of replacing the mag plug with a stainless one instead of plastic, and replaced the rear sight
Every one of my listed loads were also tested in a carbine as gooder other than the 38-44 170 swc. 8.4 grains of Silhouette in a 357 case with 158 rnfp is my son's match load shot by the hundreds....
 
The 11FS testing:
IMG_2255.jpeg
I have two of these: the Sierra 170gr FMJ “Silhouette” and the Cast Performance 200gr WLNGC.
Ramshots testing was with a 6” test barrel in a universal receiver. Mine will be in a 10” Contender, 1st Gen with iron sights.

I’m considering using SSR primers instead of MSP primers as a matter of economics. I have many more bricks of standard small rifle than I have magnum small pistol and, thus far, no powder in the small rifle burn range has noticed a difference.
 
No 357 testing in carbines for me. I'd like to, but I've managed to download my 30-30 to the point its just a hot 357 Mag anyway, so that will have to do.
I did that with a 94 just to see what a .357 would feel like.
 
I figure I've got a 135 moving about 1400 fps or so with 16 grains of H335. It's much more pleasant to shoot than a 150 grain bullet with 34 grains of H335. With lighter bullets in 16"+ barrels, 357 Mag, 30-30, and 300 BO can overlap. The problem is the 30-30 and 300 BO are cruising and the 357 Mag is on full afterburner. But since its come up, I feel like a 357 Mag rifle would match my Blackhawk nicely. I do like shooting my downloaded 30-30 though. It's like a 22 that makes holes big enough to see from the bench.
 
I figure I've got a 135 moving about 1400 fps or so with 16 grains of H335. It's much more pleasant to shoot than a 150 grain bullet with 34 grains of H335. With lighter bullets in 16"+ barrels, 357 Mag, 30-30, and 300 BO can overlap. The problem is the 30-30 and 300 BO are cruising and the 357 Mag is on full afterburner. But since its come up, I feel like a 357 Mag rifle would match my Blackhawk nicely. I do like shooting my downloaded 30-30 though. It's like a 22 that makes holes big enough to see from the bench.
My hot 158 are going 1750 from the 16". I've only tested #9 maybe there is a higher velosity powder. That was 14.7 grains. I didn't crono the 14.9s. I won't go that high again even though Lyman lists it. I much prefer 14.2
 
I’m not sure where to go now. The Berrys DEWC shot better from 38 Special cases than anything else I’ve tried, but not quite as good as I’d hoped and not as good as other bullets from 357 Mag cases.

I was trying to find a load using Silhouette and also take some pressure off my W231 supply but it looks like I might have to try it. Those are 2” stickers. A good load from this gun will shoot 1.5” or less. The highest charge is the upper right at 4.9 grains of Silhouette. Beyond that gets me into 38+P territory, which I’d like to avoid if I’m using 38 Special cases.
 

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I finally got back to more testing. For 357 and 38 the bullets used were my noe-360-154 powder coated and sized to 358. The bullets weigh 156 at time of loading. All of these results were from my 16" marlin carbine.

1) 12.6g heavy pistol @1.585 x5
High 1608 low 1529 SD 44 es 125
2) 12.8g heavy pistol @ 1.585 x5
High 1581 low 1529 SD 20 es 52
3) 13.0g heavy pistol @1.585 x5
High 1629 low 1541 SD 31 es 88

I also finally tested my Silhouette 38 special loads
Book max 5.6g 154noe @1.470
High 1086 low 1075 SD 4 es 11

Plus p book 5.8g 154noe
High 1085 low 1070 SD 5 es 15.

I was happy as usual with the Silhouette loads and kinda meah about the shooters world heavy pistol.
 
38 Special isn’t really a cartridge I’ve explored much. The ones I tried today were certainly more pleasant to shoot than the 357 Mag loads I have. Since I only have the Blackhawk now, maybe pushing into the +P range is worth a try.
 
38 Special isn’t really a cartridge I’ve explored much. The ones I tried today were certainly more pleasant to shoot than the 357 Mag loads I have. Since I only have the Blackhawk now, maybe pushing into the +P range is worth a try.
In my small sample size today Silhouette didn't give any more in that .2 grains. The standard book max was just about perfect. With red dot the accuracy was great at max and the wheels fell off at +p. All of that was with my cast and pushing for terminal ballistics with a quality hollowpoint would make more sense.
 
In my small sample size today Silhouette didn't give any more in that .2 grains. The standard book max was just about perfect. With red dot the accuracy was great at max and the wheels fell off at +p. All of that was with my cast and pushing for terminal ballistics with a quality hollowpoint would make more sense.
I’m playing on the other side of the tracks right now: light bullets and fast-ish powders in the standard pressure range for walking around loads where critters consider us a tasty treat.

I haven’t tried Silhouette or W244, yet. The weather has been uncooperative.
 
I’m playing on the other side of the tracks right now: light bullets and fast-ish powders in the standard pressure range for walking around loads where critters consider us a tasty treat.

I haven’t tried Silhouette or W244, yet. The weather has been uncooperative.
I'm kinda a Silhouette fan Boi. The only bullet I don't have a good load yet is my 38-44 with the 180 sil. I finalized that 6.8 170 swc load, made a pile and moved on. The 156 noe 8.4 load is another pile, and I just wanted the edification of a 38 load, don't plan on loading any... it's logged for the boy later and moving on. I need to resolve the 180 sil with #9. 9.0 is good but not tested fully. Might make a Silhouette load and test it at the same time. Wild guess 6.6 grains. 🤠
 
I'm kinda a Silhouette fan Boi. The only bullet I don't have a good load yet is my 38-44 with the 180 sil. I finalized that 6.8 170 swc load, made a pile and moved on. The 156 noe 8.4 load is another pile, and I just wanted the edification of a 38 load, don't plan on loading any... it's logged for the boy later and moving on. I need to resolve the 180 sil with #9. 9.0 is good but not tested fully. Might make a Silhouette load and test it at the same time. Wild guess 6.6 grains. 🤠
I’m curious to see how AutoComp performs. I’m thinking the 7.1-7.4gr range is going to get me 825fps at 15’ from a 2” Model 85 5-shot Taurus. Unfortunately, I can’t setup a Chrony at the indoor range and it’s been too windy here to try it outside.
 
Checking Hodgdens data, I was actually already in the +P range and beyond it with yesterdays loads. They specifically tested a Berrys DEWC and my 4.7 and 4.9 grain loads were above their maximum of 4.6 grains. Both of those were my most accurate, coming in at 2.3+” from 25 yards. I used the Hodgden data for a standard pressure load with a Laser Cast HBWC, but used the longer COAL given for the Berrys DEWC, 1.145” vs 1.231”. I guess I got lucky. No pressure signs and the primers were rounded and looked like my pistol power 30-30 primers (6 grains of W231 and 135 gr C&C bullet).

First off, how is there such a difference in charge? I guess it’s the extra volume afforded by the hollow base coupled with the increased difficulty of pushing a copper plated vs cast and lubed bullet?

Looks like I’m back to W231. Hodgden only has data for the Hornady HBWC. I’ll use Lyman data since they have solid cast BNWCs at 148 and 150 grains. For all the stuff people say about it, Titegroup is starting to look more appealing by the day. It’s listed as most accurate for the 150. W231 did not do well with HBWC from 38 Special cases but is great from 357 Mag cases. Might as well try both. I’d really like a good target load from the 38 Special case. I still have quite a few even after giving away a few boxes.
 
At least in 38 cases, the DEWC outshoot the swaged HBWC in my Blackhawk. However that’s not a high standard. The Berrys are 20% cheaper and available so I thought I’d give them a try.

In the end you’re probably right, but I’m willing to accept slightly lower performance for 4/5 the price. I’ll try W231 in both cases. For whatever reason the longer 357 Mag cases just seem to shoot better from my revolver. Seems like a good reason to get a dedicated 38 revolver.
 
At least in 38 cases, the DEWC outshoot the swaged HBWC in my Blackhawk. However that’s not a high standard. The Berrys are 20% cheaper and available so I thought I’d give them a try.

In the end you’re probably right, but I’m willing to accept slightly lower performance for 4/5 the price. I’ll try W231 in both cases. For whatever reason the longer 357 Mag cases just seem to shoot better from my revolver. Seems like a good reason to get a dedicated 38 revolver.
There are long 38 bullets that may bridge that gap for you. I personally use the 358-170-swc and it won't fit my chamber in 357. Might be interesting to test.
 
Checking Hodgdens data, I was actually already in the +P range and beyond it with yesterdays loads. They specifically tested a Berrys DEWC and my 4.7 and 4.9 grain loads were above their maximum of 4.6 grains. Both of those were my most accurate, coming in at 2.3+” from 25 yards. I used the Hodgden data for a standard pressure load with a Laser Cast HBWC, but used the longer COAL given for the Berrys DEWC, 1.145” vs 1.231”. I guess I got lucky. No pressure signs and the primers were rounded and looked like my pistol power 30-30 primers (6 grains of W231 and 135 gr C&C bullet).

First off, how is there such a difference in charge? I guess it’s the extra volume afforded by the hollow base coupled with the increased difficulty of pushing a copper plated vs cast and lubed bullet?

Looks like I’m back to W231. Hodgden only has data for the Hornady HBWC. I’ll use Lyman data since they have solid cast BNWCs at 148 and 150 grains. For all the stuff people say about it, Titegroup is starting to look more appealing by the day. It’s listed as most accurate for the 150. W231 did not do well with HBWC from 38 Special cases but is great from 357 Mag cases. Might as well try both. I’d really like a good target load from the 38 Special case. I still have quite a few even after giving away a few boxes.
TiteGroup in the .38Spl case is fine-n-dandy pushing a DEWC, BNWC, or SWC. I’m personally not as interested in it for a HBWC because I have had better results with other powders: Nitro 100, Solo 1000, W231, WST, No.2, Bullseye, and Red Dot in my Rugers using Special cases and Unique, HS6, and No.5, in the longer Magnum cases.

I tend to agree with @Hooda Thunkit on this: the problem is the bullet. I doubt driving a wadcutter faster out of a RBH is going to improve target accuracy significantly but it is possible.

I read through your results and found one point of confusion: the Western v.8 manual listed the range for Silhouette with a 148gr LC WCDBB as 4.5-4.9gr (that’s a solid bevel-based bullet) but didn’t show a listing for a hollow-based bullet. Winchester never shows a loading for WAP (now Silhouette) with a HBWC in .38Spl - probably because Winchester only considered WAP as a self-loading pistol powder - so I’m wondering where Hodgdon’s got “new” data.
 
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