357 load development and casual observations

[DMW1116]

You are correct. It was a WCDBB. That makes it even more of a mystery why the standard load with that bullet is over the +P max for the bullet I used.

 

[AJC1]

TiteGroup in the .38Spl case is fine-n-dandy pushing a DEWC, BNWC, or SWC. I’m personally not as interested in it for a HBWC because I have had better results with other powders: Nitro 100, Solo 1000, W231, WST, No.2, Bullseye, and Red Dot in my Rugers using Special cases and Unique, HS6, and No.5, in the longer Magnum cases.

I tend to agree with @Hooda Thunkit on this: the problem is the bullet. I doubt driving a wadcutter faster out of a RBH is going to improve target accuracy significantly but it is possible.

I read through your results and found one point of confusion: the Western v.8 manual listed the range for Silhouette with a 148gr LC WCDBB as 4.5-4.9gr (that’s a solid bevel-based bullet) but didn’t show a listing for a hollow-based bullet. Winchester never shows a loading for WAP (now Silhouette) with a HBWC in .38Spl - probably because Winchester only considered WAP as a self-loading pistol powder - so I’m wondering where Hodgdon’s got “new” data.

Western did its own testing to the best of my knowledge. I don't expect hogden to add any value in that area.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Checking Hodgdens data, I was actually already in the +P range and beyond it with yesterdays loads. They specifically tested a Berrys DEWC and my 4.7 and 4.9 grain loads were above their maximum of 4.6 grains. Both of those were my most accurate, coming in at 2.3+” from 25 yards. I used the Hodgden data for a standard pressure load with a Laser Cast HBWC, but used the longer COAL given for the Berrys DEWC, 1.145” vs 1.231”. I guess I got lucky. No pressure signs and the primers were rounded and looked like my pistol power 30-30 primers (6 grains of W231 and 135 gr C&C bullet).

Now I'm really confused.

Cartridge: 38 Special
Your search returned 1 loads
Twist: 1:18.750"

Barrel Length: 7.700"

Trim Length: 1.145"
Bullet: 148 GR. LC WCDBB

Diameter: 0.358"

Case: Starline

Primer: Winchester SP, Small Pistol

Starting Load

Maximum Load

Manufacturer

Powder

C.O.L.

Grs.

Vel. (ft/s)

Pressure

Grs.

Vel. (ft/s)

Pressure

Ramshot

Silhouette

1.231"

4.5

925

15,600 PSI

4.9

1,006

16,900 PSI

16.9kPSI is standard pressure for a .38Spl according to SAAMI, Hodgdon only lists one 148gr load for Silhouette (above), and it's not for the Berry's DEWC, plated or otherwise. ???????

 

[DMW1116]

In the 38 +P data, the information for Silhouette shows 4.2 to 4.6 grains for a 148 grain Berrys DEWC. The COAL is shorter than the trim length. I think something might be messed up. The standard 38 Special data is as you posted above and is what I used.

 

[DMW1116]

And to all the 38/357 researchers, may the new year bring small groups.

 

[DMW1116]

I tested some more of the Berrys wadcutters. CFE Pistol and W231 were the flavor of the day shot from 38 Special cases. I took the W231 load data from the Lyman manual for 148 solid wadcutters. The CFE data came from Hodgdens website.

Shooting the CFE load, I have a good potential load in the upper 40% of the load range. It was noticeably better than the Silhouette loads from last time.

However the winner was the lower end of the W231 series of tests. These shot just slightly behind the test loads for my Hornady HBWC load. Time will tell but if it’s 20% cheaper for 90% of the accuracy I’ll be tickled.

 

[AJC1]

Got out and did a little more 38-44 testing. The competitors were accurate #9 and blue dot pushing an rcbs 180 sil with gas check... this test was the first done in a 24" cowboy so previous results can't be directly compared.

 

[DMW1116]

Seems like good consistency with either one assuming low double digit SD is acceptable.

 

[AJC1]

Seems like good consistency with either one assuming low double digit SD is acceptable.

The 16," liked 8.6 better and the 24" liked 8.8. So is the solution two loads or splitting the difference

 

[DMW1116]

For my equipment I’d split the difference. My powder measure will vary enough that production loads would bounce between 8.6 and 8.8 if I set it for 8.6.

 

[AJC1]

For my equipment I’d split the difference. My powder measure will vary enough that production loads would bounce between 8.6 and 8.8 if I set it for 8.6.

I'm still weighing each charge, so if I dial 8.7 with +-1 accuracy that puts me in the zone

 

[DMW1116]

That’s about where I am too. My powder measure tends to throw high once set so I lean about 0.1 low and check often.

 

[DMW1116]

Somebody talk me down. I’m about to try a magnum level load with the Berrys DEWC. I’ve cobbled some data together and taken some measurements and I think I can make it work with HS6 and a COAL of 1.48”-1.49”. I’m trying for just over 1200 fps using 150 grain data from the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual.

 

[AJC1]

Somebody talk me down. I’m about to try a magnum level load with the Berrys DEWC. I’ve cobbled some data together and taken some measurements and I think I can make it work with HS6 and a COAL of 1.48”-1.49”. I’m trying for just over 1200 fps using 150 grain data from the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual.

What advantage are you looking for. The goal of a wadcutter is Supreme accuracy at about 800fps.

 

[DMW1116]

Wadcutter accuracy at magnum velocity. Also, I just want to see what happens. The wadcutters make bigger holes than the MBC SWC. The MBC load makes way more noise and I want the hole to match the noise and recoil.

 

[DMW1116]

Though I must say the 2400/MBC SWC load might make me pay Alliant prices again. Accuracy is consistently 1.5” or less at 25 off a rest. Not outstanding but it’s good enough I know I’m the problem shooting it off hand in Bullseye style slow fire at 50 yards.

 

[AJC1]

Wadcutter accuracy at magnum velocity. Also, I just want to see what happens. The wadcutters make bigger holes than the MBC SWC. The MBC load makes way more noise and I want the hole to match the noise and recoil.

If I were to try it I would use the cast version. Any idea deserves reasonable questions that's all I got. God speed

 

[DMW1116]

There in lies part of the reason. I have a pile of the Berrys DEWC. They shoot well from 38 cases. I’m willing to spend a couple dozen on a wild trail. When these are gone I’ll likely switch over to the cast version from Acme or MBC, at least to try some out.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

There in lies part of the reason. I have a pile of the Berrys DEWC. They shoot well from 38 cases. I’m willing to spend a couple dozen on a wild trail. When these are gone I’ll likely switch over to the cast version from Acme or MBC, at least to try some out.

I think at worst you’ll drive it fast enough to become unstable and you get keyhole hits on the target. At best you’ll have a good vermin load - but way too loud for a midnight visitor to the grain bins. 🫨

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

Somebody talk me down. I’m about to try a magnum level load with the Berrys DEWC. I’ve cobbled some data together and taken some measurements and I think I can make it work with HS6 and a COAL of 1.48”-1.49”. I’m trying for just over 1200 fps using 150 grain data from the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual.

Aren't the Berrys plated? As long as you don't peel the plating you'll be fine, at least at shorter distances. Over about 50 yards the WC will destabilize.

If the Berrys are jacketed, ignore the part about peeling the plating.

Good close in load for hard hits. That big flat face on the wadcutter really puts the slap on the target.

 

[DMW1116]

The box says max velocity is 1250 fps. 9.7 grains in the load data gives 1275 this the plan to stop at 9.5 grains. Unlike the data from Hodgden, Lyman uses a 4” barrel so I may not make it above 9.1, since my Blackhawk barrel is 6.5.

Someone check my sanity. The crimp groove on a SWC puts 0.35” inside the case. The Berrys are 0.547” long overall. That leaves 0.197” of DEWC out of the case. They’ll be seated long but that’s not that unusual from what I’ve seen. If/when I try the cast and coated bullets I’ll run them all the way to 9.7 grains of powder. Funny that the hi tech coating may be tougher than the plating.

 

[Walkalong]

I suspect the Berrys plated WC will struggle at magnum pressure/speed.

Why not just shoot them at midrange .357 pressure/speeds?

 

[DMW1116]

That may be where I end up. I'm planning to test the range of loads, which start at just under 1100 fps. The full range of data goes from 8.5 to 10 grains for projectiles in the 150-158 grain range. I use just under 10 grains for a 125 grain XTP. That's a pretty spicy load. I don't plan to go that high.

 

[DMW1116]

So that was a mixed bag. It does seem to have worked but the accuracy fell apart before I got to the upper half of the charge range.

8.5 and 8.7 grains shot pretty well but 8.9 started to open up. Then 9.1 starts showing pressure and 9.3 definitely was too hot. There was a drastic POI shift at 8.9. The first two charges were under 1.5” at 25 yards, with one group under an inch. If overlayed the groups would be right on top of each other too. It’s in the magnum range so I’m going to call it a success.

 

[Bearded Phil]

So Ive got new casts for 357 Mag that I'll be trying out soon.

My old alloy was range scrap and 1% 95/5 solder, new alloy is COWW with the same 1% solder added.

NOE moulds:

360-158-WFN-T4 with the deep HP pins
Range scrap casted at 148gr
COWW casts at 146gr

360-182-WFN-U2 with the deep HP pins & alum GC (weights with GC installed)
Range scrap casted 172gr
COWW casts at 169gr

I bought a PB solid version of each profile, the solid T4 cast right at 158gr, U2s cast at 185gr with COWW alloy.

Now what I'm curious to see is how groups are going to change with my best loads accounting for the 2-3gr differences in weight.

13.0gr and 12.9gr N110 are the best loads for the range scrap casts of the T4 HP and U2 HP GC respectively, I would imagine the charge may need to come up a .1gr with slightly lighter bullets of the same length and profile, but maybe not at all.

Also curious to see if those charge weights will come down significantly (.3gr or more) for the solids. 10-13gr of lead must surely make a difference in grouping and POI.

I've got a good amount of casts to figure it out though:
T4-PB HP: around 1500 by weight (to be counted and bagged)
T4-PB Solid: 1500 as well by weight, to be counted etc.
U2-GC HP: 400 or so, didn't cast as many of these because I want to move away from the GC version of the mould
U2- PB Solids: around 1200 by weight

These are all coated as of today, but I still need to size them. I have one last set of 100ct T4 PB HPs of the old range scrap alloy to load for March's silhouette match, but after that I'll need to have figured something out for the April match.