.357 mag reality check

[jr_roosa]

I just loaded up some test loads for my S&W combat magnum, 4" barrel.

I'm using federal small magnum pistol match primers (all that were available a few months ago when I picked them up), Hornady 125gr HP/XTP, winchester brass, and Vihta Vuori N-110 powder.

Hornady has the max load as 16.1 gr and 1500fps.

The VV manual has a start load of 16.8gr at 1601fps and a max load of 18.4 at 1772 fps.

I loaded a series that covers the range, 1300, 1400, 1500, 1600, and 1700fps. The last one is about half a grain short of the VV max load.

Does this sound outside the realm of reason? I'm surprised to see that the Hornady guide stops short of the starting load from the powder manufacturer. VV states their data are based on actul pressure measurement. I wonder what Hornady uses.

The final load isn't going to be the regular food for this revolver since I know it's not designed for 24/7 use of magnum loads. I usually shoot .38 special wadcutters at 600fps or so. I'm just looking for a high powered round for out in the woods or around the house.

-J.

 

[nicholst55]

It's not unusual for different manuals to vary that much on powder charges. It merely reflects different variables - gun, brass, bullets, primers, etc. I would probably start with the VV starting load and shoot 15-20 rounds, and adjust the powder charge according to pressure signs - either up or down, depending.

Why not give Hornady a call and ask what they base their data on?

 

[Walkalong]

The 1995 2nd edition VV manual I have shows a start load with N-110 and the 125 Gr XTP of 16.5 for 1571 @ 24,900 PSI and a max load of 18.1 for 1738 @ 33,300 PSI

That is from a 7" test barrel. 7 inches and no cylinder gap.

1700 FPS from a standard 4" revolver would be wishful thinking IMHO.

I would tread lightly after Hornadys 16.1 Gr Max.

 

[Slamfire]

My 357 Magnum loads are less than 1300 fps with a 158. Because when I push them much faster I have to beat them out of my 6.5 " M27.

I think this is a book maximum load of W296. I am certainly not getting 1500 or 1600 fps.

158 LSWC Lyman #2 alloy 15.5 W296 Zero Cases CCI500

21 June 2008 T = 85 °F

Ave Vel =1282
Std Dev =35
ES = 128.1
High = 1325
Low = 1197
N = 12


I am not going to get the book velocities in my revolvers, and I don't have a 357 Lever gun. I am certain I could get 1600 fps in a lever rifle.

 

[jr_roosa]

I'm not so worried about the actual velocity...anything above 1400 or so would probably be fine. I just wanted to be sure that I wouldn't be ripping my gun apart with their "1772fps" load before I take them to the range.

I did see that VV uses a test barrel, and that's a good point. I figured if anything that would mean my chamber pressures would be a smidge lower than theirs since I'd be losing pressure to the gap and whatnot.

I guess I'll pick the fastest one that works well and load up a bunch. I already have some .38spl+p rounds loaded up with the same bullet for more casual shooting, so the magnums will probably just be for carrying and not so much for shooting. I really don't want to ride the ragged edge either so I'll probably pick something closer to "1600fps" and call it a day.

Thanks.

-J.

 

[jr_roosa]

Update:

I just got to the range for the first time in a while, and everything seemed to work OK. No cases stuck in the cylinder, no blown primers, still have all my fingers and toes.

Wow. I thought the Winchester white box .357 mag had some kick. They're actually pretty anemic compared to what the cartridge is capable of. I was knocking dirt out of the soundproofing above the firing line.

This gets rid of any desire I had for a .44mag. If the .357 can't do the job, I think I'll reach for a rifle.

Oh, and I think I'll give VV-N110 a thumbs up as a good .357 powder. I'll update again once the wife allows me to get a chrony and see how the velocities compare to a test barrel.

-J.

 

[1911Tuner]

With a few exceptions from specialty manufacturers like Buffalo Bore, modern .357 ammo isn't quite what it used to be. It's been pretty well castrated as compared to the original loading of a 158-grain lead SWC at over 1500 fps from an 8-inch barrel. I have some of that old ammo, and the chronograph insists that it's clocking over1400 from a 6-inch barrel...and 1360-1370 from a 4-inch 681 Smith. That's some pretty serious thump.

In order to get close to duplicating requires a pretty healthy overload with a old lot of 2400...and even then, it doesn't quite match it.

I won't post the charge weight with 2400 because the powder formulation has changed a little in the last few years. It's a little quicker than the older Hercules lots, and the data would be positively unhealthy to use in anything smaller than a Ruger Redhawk.

 

[Beelzy]

FWIW, the new Hornady manual has undergone a slight neutering in regard to max. loads
compared to the older editions.

 

[Ghost Walker]

The straightest shooting, hardest hitting, best balanced, and easiest-to-handle revolver I've ever used in my entire life is an S&W Model 29-2 with an 8 & 3/8's inch, half-lugged barrel. I used to own three of them; I'm now down to one; and it's going to stay with me till the end.

I don't know what it is about, 'red line fever' and max loads; but, after some of the goofy stuff I made up in my youth, I like a load that's just hot enough to get the job done and for me to be able to shoot well. This means that I'll often end up loading rounds at the upper end - but, not the top - of the charts.

By the way there are many variables between one manufacturer's load data and another. Having once blown up a beautiful S&W Model 19 with a few rounds of Super Vel ammo, I'm very leery of really hot, 'high performance' ammo. The other consideration concerns going into, 'action' with a load with which you're not intimately familiar - That's just as bad as using a weapon that you're not heavily practiced with.

Otherwise you seem to have chosen very decent components for those 357 rounds you're building! I have a high regard for (expensive) Vihtavuori powder; and those Federal primers are OK, too. I understand why you are using 125 grain JHP's; but that ain't a, 'woods load'; and personally, with that 4" barrel, I'd have gone with something in the range of 140-150 grains. (Perhaps JSP, too.)

 

[something vague]

I would agree that a 125gr HP/XTP is less than ideal for woods carry. And that goes for any grain XTP. IMHO you don't want to use a fast expanding bullet for putting down large game, especially when its' intent is for protection from this game. I would really look into some gas checked 150 to 180 grain lead bullets. If by chance you stumble across a pissed bear then you're going to want penetration more than anything. I actually just stumbled across a 250-300lb black bear in the woods no more than 20 yards in front of me. The ground was wet so neither one of us heard eachother until I was right on top of him. Luckily black bears are by no means an angry animal and usually avoid confrontation at all costs. It was an amazing moment and realization. It was the fastest running animal I have ever seen, and I've seen them all out here in Maine. Outrun a bear, yeah right! Sorry, got off topic a bit.

 

[tango2echo]

I'll go the other way. I have personally taken a couple dozen Eastern US whitetails with a 6" GP-100 using N110 and the 125 XTP, or W296 and the 125 XTP. Ranges from 10-80+ yards. All but two were DRT, and those two were recovered inside of 75 yards. My load with N110 clocks 1550fps from a 6" barrel, and is PLENTY hot. I would use caution above 17.5grs with N110, as it doesn't show much pressure until its too late. I blew a GP-100 apart with a SLIGHTLY over max load of W296, so I am convinced that if you want a hotter load than 1550fps with the 125gr XTP you need to get a .44 magnum.

t2e

 

[Byron]

1911Tuner, since the old loads are lead, they would shoot faster than jacketed. I would think a jacketed bullet would shoot slower with the powder and primer the same in both. Didn't the switch to jacket bullets come about due to the leading problem of the original loads. I did some testing with 45 Colt loads in a Ruger Blackhawk and all things equal, the lead bullet shot 100 FPS faster. Byron

 

[jr_roosa]

The 125s were all I could find on the shelf, and it took a month of looking so that's what I got. I have some hard cast 158s without gas checks, and I think driving them fast is a lost cause. .38special +P velocities is as fast as I want those to go.

I have my eyes out for some 158s. I'm more worried about feral dogs, coyotes, big cats, and 2 legged trouble out here (you know, ostritches and emus and whatnot) so the 125s should do the trick. I don't even think we have bears around here, and whatever we have would be black bears. They don't worry me much.

I think I'll go for something around "1650fps" by shaving half a grain or so off the fastest load I tested. I don't need it to catch my hair on fire. The VV max load is compressed, and that kind of freaks me out.

Another benefit with the 125s is that they make a nice .38special +p load that my wife can handle.

I really can't wait until this reloading component drought goes away. It would be nice to just mosey in to the store and pick up a box of whatever I want rather than trying to make do with whatever dregs are left.

-J.