357 mag, Titegroup, Primers

[JFrameTwitch]

On the bottle of Titegroup it shows 4.5 - 5.0 grains under a 158gr cast LSWC using a small pistol magnum primer. All I have are regular small pistol primers. Is it safe to go ahead and use this data while subbing in the small pistol primer in place of the small magnum?

 

[anothernewb]

Titegroup will work with a std primer. for consistencies sake, I would venture to say that magnum load development is always tested with magnum primers for a particular companies load manuals.

 

[mdi]

Yep, with Titegroup, a standard primer will work fine. While I suggest to new reloaders to stick to what the book calls for, sometimes it isn't possible, and the only time I use Magnum primers in my .357 is when I use H110 and/or WC820. Since most reloading manuals are just reports of results found by a specific lab, using the components listed, you won't get the same exact results from your load as what your manual says.

 

[PO2Hammer]

Hodgdon does all their testing with magnum primers in .357, not sure why, maybe just to cover their back sides. Titegroup works best IMO with standard primers.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

As said above, you will be fine with a standard primer with that powder. The use of a magnum primer is not cartridge specific, it's powder specific. You only need a magnum primer for slow hard to ignite ball powders like W296/H110, W540/HS-6 and W571/HS-7, not because the word magnum is in the name of the cartridge.

 

[evan price]

I use 5.0 titegroup, win or wolf regular primers, and 158 lswc for my 357 magnum range ammo.

 

[JFrameTwitch]

Thanks Everyone,
Evan, that is exactly what I have on hand. Wolf primers and 158gr lswc. How is that load to shoot? I am looking to put something semi-warm together but I am limited to these components at the time being.

 

[Rule3]

Do you have any other powders to "play" with. Titegroup and the 357 mag just are not a good combo IMHO.


There are much better powders if you can find them.

It is way to fast a powder and such a small amount gets lost in the big case. Your chances of double charge or worse are great.

 

[JFrameTwitch]

The only other powder I have right now is red dot. Pistol powder is hard to find around here right now and I have zero time to go hunting for it. The time I do have needs to be spent loading something so I can keep shooting during the week. I realize Titegroup is not ideal but it's what I have and I can also use it for my .45acp needs. Hopefully someday availability will be better and I can have more variety on hand.

 

[Rule3]

I understand, just be careful weighing it or measuring it.

 

[smovlov]

I've loaded 357 with 158gr lswc, titegroup, and standard primers. It works. I didn't like the leading it left behind. I think the bullets I had were too hard for the velocity because they don't lead using 2400. Also sometimes titegroup and lead don't play well together.

 

[rfwobbly]

All these components and powders are donated so that they can get "honorable mention" in the soon to be published load manual. I think what happens is they called someone like Winchester who had just finished a run of mag primers, and so that's what they sent over. They don't send their 'best', companies usually donate their 'most'.

 

[Hondo 60]

I've loaded 1,000s of 357s with titegroup & standard primers.

My observations:

Mild report, but also mild velocity.

You'll reach the max pressure LONG before you reach upper 357 velocities.
Mine usually max at 950-1,000 fps.

But like I said - mild report, that's why I use titegroup.

 

[JFrameTwitch]

So I loaded up 20 rounds. Tula small pistol primer and 4.7 grains tite group under a 158gr CLSWC. They were accurate at 11 yards but they felt wimpy at best. My buddy couldn't make it with the chronograph. It felt along the lines of a 38spl +p. Is this par for the course using tite group for 357 mag? I don't think i will waste any more time unless I can produce something with a full house feeling. My manual shows 5.0grains as the max charge with said bullet so there is not a lot of room left.

 

[Skinnedknuckles]

If you look at the Hodgdon web page, 4.3 gr of Titegroup is the .38 Special load (for jacketed) so your feelings are right on the money for 4.7 gr (even if you might have loaded it into a .357 Mag case).

 

[rcmodel]

Titegroup is one of the fastest burning powders.

You cannot get Magnum performance out of it without exceeding pressure limits.
Don't even try it!!

Think of moving a bowling ball with your hand.

Pull back and hit it as hard as you can with your fist.
And it won't go very far and you will break all the bones in your hand.
(That's fast burning powder)

Now, push it as hard as you can with the palm of your hand.
It will go a long ways faster, and won't hurt your hand at all.
(That's slow burning Magnum class powder)

rc

 

[Mad Chemist]

Good conceptual analogy RC. Some of us eggheads may argue that it is not technically perfect, but it sure is close. And it gets the point across.

 

[rcmodel]

Thankya! Thankya!

I don't do technical arguments.

(Mans gotta know his educational limitations.)

So you win by default if you want to take a crack at explaining it better technically through chemistry.

rc

 

[Mad Chemist]

I think you got it licked. No reason to put a fine point on it

 

[JFrameTwitch]

Good analogy with the bowling ball. I understand that there are better powders out there and I will be shopping around. Last night I loaded up some at 5.0gr under a 158gr LSWC. The results were better but still not what I would call magnum.

Yes the burn rate of the powder is an issue but it seems as though the lead bullet is an issue as well. I think the charge is limited due to the lead bullet. At 5.0gr (max charge), the published velocity is 1,108 ft/sec and pressure is 24,900 CUP (low). If you move to a jacketed bullet of the same weight, you can increase the charge up 6.1gr at 1,229 ft/sec and 41,900 CUP.

The numbers don't seem to suggest a pressure problem but rather a problem with using lead and anything more than 5.0gr. I am going to get some jacketed bullets and try them out and report back.

Unless someone already has this experience?

 

[Mad Chemist]

You're wasting you time trying to work up a true magnum .357 load with Titegroup. Bullet selection is not going to help. It's simply the wrong powder for your application.

If you can't find a magnum class powder any of the medium burn rate powders will work substantially better and get you close to "true" magnum performance.

 

[john wall]

I have long used 5.5 gr with a 158 plated bullet in the 357. A little above what a 38 can do, but easy on brass and gun. I have a 7 banger 686 Smith. No thick cylinder walls in this gun. No high pressure ammo.

What they said about magnum loads. It ain't gonna happen with Titegroup.

 

[Comrade Mike]

I don't remember the exact load, but I think it was 5.1 grains of Titegroup under a 158 grain plated bullet produced one of my best light magnum loads. Standard pistol primers and load with confidence

 

[Dr.Zubrato]

Titegroup is one of the fastest burning powders.

You cannot get Magnum performance out of it without exceeding pressure limits.
Don't even try it!!

Think of moving a bowling ball with your hand.

Pull back and hit it as hard as you can with your fist.
And it won't go very far and you will break all the bones in your hand.
(That's fast burning powder)

Now, push it as hard as you can with the palm of your hand.
It will go a long ways faster, and won't hurt your hand at all.
(That's slow burning Magnum class powder)

rc

Word! great analogy. I wish we could rep posts or +1 them

I have TG, love it. It's an excellent powder for what it's intended for.
This was not what it was intended for, imo save your TG for other pistol calibers, it's really versatile! here, you need a slow burning powder to properly build velocity without scattering your fine pistol to the four corners of the gun range.

 

[JFrameTwitch]

Thanks John, good to know.

I will probably load up a few more at this level to have around as light loads in case I have an occasion for that.

I was able to find some Imr 4227 yesterday. Seems like it may not be the ideal powder but it is all I can seem to find without spending all day shopping around. I have had some success with private sales but those sources have dried up lately as well. I will give the 4227 a try and see how that goes.