357 Magnum vs 5.56x45 in carbines

[Shawn Dodson]

Probably most of them being from 123 gr. .30 Cal. FMJ, with the odd 154 gr .30 FMJ, from AKs, SKSs, and Mosins/PK MGs and some 12.7mm here and there.

I just know what I've seen from opening the thoraxes of deer shot from 10 to 225 yards with 55 gr. V-Max bullets- it looks like a grenade went off in there, jellied lung. The deer don't go more than a few steps. They penetrate deer ribs just fine at those distances, and human ribs aren't that much more solid.

Fackler operated on quite a few folks shot with 5.56 in Vietnam, and was selected by the Army to assist the U.S. in countering allegations by the International Red Cross that the M16 bullet was "inhumane".

Most people don't know that Fackler developed his 10% ordnance gelatin solution as a result the "inhumane M16 bullet" claim, which ultimately led the Army to have him establish the Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory to study the wounding effects of small arms ammunition to provide information for gunshot wound treatment. This was years before the FBI's shootout in Miami, that led the FBI to contacting Fackler for assistance in developing a test program and criteria for selecting effective ammunition for law enforcement use. This article discusses Fackler's early work regarding the "inhumane M16 bullet" - https://sadefensejournal.com/father-of-modern-wound-ballistics/

 

[d2wing]

Fackler operated on quite a few folks shot with 5.56 in Vietnam, and was selected by the Army to assist the U.S. in countering allegations by the International Red Cross that the M16 bullet was "inhumane".

Most people don't know that Fackler developed his 10% ordnance gelatin solution as a result the "inhumane M16 bullet" claim, which ultimately led the Army to have him establish the Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory to study the wounding effects of small arms ammunition to provide information for gunshot wound treatment. This was years before the FBI's shootout in Miami, that led the FBI to contacting Fackler for assistance in developing a test program and criteria for selecting effective ammunition for law enforcement use. This article discusses Fackler's early work regarding the "inhumane M16 bullet" - https://sadefensejournal.com/father-of-modern-wound-ballistics/

That is what he says. He wasn't selected by the Army; A high ranking officer helped him set up a small independent office in a hospital. He did not have much Army equipment and his little dept wasn't very official. The Army ignored his claims. They have real researchers and testing facilities. Also, I have shot 100's of critters, butchered farm animals and worked in a meat packing plant. I didn't find any Jello in any of them. You like most people believe whatever you want. The story is that he was a coroner and based his report on some cold cadavers.
Among his many lies is that Roy Weatherby invented energy, and every gun company, ammo company, and real researchers are all fake and just want to sell guns based on false claims. And much more like he invented "ballistic gelatin". Someone else told him about it in published correspondence. I am going to ignore further discussion and people like you are why I no longer enjoy this board much.

 

[entropy]

Martin Fackler is not the be-all, end-all source for terminal ballistics research. I read his stuff, but with a grain of salt, not drinking the Kool Aid. There are many others who have done research in the field also.

I prefer my own research, and definitely believe what my eyes have seen. I stand by my observations.

I do not know who Dr. Fackler did or did not do terminal ballistics research on, or what calibers were involved, I was not there. But d2wing was a lot closer to him in time and location and might have a bit more insight into it than you or I, Shawn.

 

[Pudge]

Your not getting that velosity or bullet problems with a 158. If your using a smaller lighter bullet compare performance to a 40 grain varmint bullet in 223.

Hornady XTP HP 158 grain, on their box, recommend velocity from 700fps to 1500fps. That is easily exceeded with a carbine. You may not think that I'm getting those problems with a 158, but the manufacturer thinks I will. They make a version of the XTP intended for higher velocities called the XTP FP. You don't need to use them when you hunt with a .357 carbine, but at this point I do have first-hand experience, and I can say that the 158 grain Hornady XTP FP, out of a 20" 92 carbine, expands and holds together as advertised and is quite effective on whitetails.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

That is what he says. He wasn't selected by the Army; A high ranking officer helped him set up a small independent office in a hospital. He did not have much Army equipment and his little dept wasn't very official. The Army ignored his claims. They have real researchers and testing facilities. Also, I have shot 100's of critters, butchered farm animals and worked in a meat packing plant. I didn't find any Jello in any of them. You like most people believe whatever you want. The story is that he was a coroner and based his report on some cold cadavers.
Among his many lies is that Roy Weatherby invented energy, and every gun company, ammo company, and real researchers are all fake and just want to sell guns based on false claims. And much more like he invented "ballistic gelatin". Someone else told him about it in published correspondence. I am going to ignore further discussion and people like you are why I no longer enjoy this board much.

The U.S. Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory, under Fackler's directorship, was set up in 1981 at the Letterman Army Institute of Research at the Presidio of San Francisco, CA.

The rest of your claims are rubbish.

 

[AJC1]

Hornady XTP HP 158 grain, on their box, recommend velocity from 700fps to 1500fps. That is easily exceeded with a carbine. You may not think that I'm getting those problems with a 158, but the manufacturer thinks I will. They make a version of the XTP intended for higher velocities called the XTP FP. You don't need to use them when you hunt with a .357 carbine, but at this point I do have first-hand experience, and I can say that the 158 grain Hornady XTP FP, out of a 20" 92 carbine, expands and holds together as advertised and is quite effective on whitetails.

Correct, at anything beyond pistol range an xtp will be impacting at an ideal speed based on their need for speed to open up. I am all for the 158xtp and the Sierra 158 jsp. Junior hunts with a 16" and I'm not lugging the 24" octagon cowboy around God's green acre. The lighter than 140xtps are for SD and do not have the sectional density I want in a hunting bullet. If I'm really close I'd personally want a 180 for a better chance at pass trough and less meat damage.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

... d2wing was a lot closer to him in time and location and might have a bit more insight into it than you or I, Shawn.

On 19 February 1991, I performed terminal ballistics tests in properly prepared and calibrated 10% Type 250A ordnance gelatin with Fackler at the U.S. Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory.

In 1994, I participated in wound ballistics tests in 10% ordnance gelatin at the California Highway Patrol Academy in Sacramento with Fackler, Duncan MacPherson, and several other respected wound ballistics researchers during the IWBA Wound Ballistics Conference.

d2wing's kooky lies are exactly that - lies.

 

[d2wing]

The U.S. Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory, under Fackler's directorship, was set up in 1981 at the Letterman Army Institute of Research at the Presidio of San Francisco, CA.

The rest of your claims are rubbish.

So a Naval coroner treated lots of guys with 5.56 NATO wounds? The Hanoi Navy I presume, LOL.

 

[d2wing]

On 19 February 1991, I performed terminal ballistics tests in properly prepared and calibrated 10% Type 250A ordnance gelatin with Fackler at the U.S. Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory.

In 1994, I participated in wound ballistics tests in 10% ordnance gelatin at the California Highway Patrol Academy in Sacramento with Fackler, Duncan MacPherson, and several other respected wound ballistics researchers during the IWBA Wound Ballistics Conference.

d2wing's kooky lies are exactly that - lies.

Golly, you would know.

Fackler operated on quite a few folks shot with 5.56 in Vietnam, and was selected by the Army to assist the U.S. in countering allegations by the International Red Cross that the M16 bullet was "inhumane".

Most people don't know that Fackler developed his 10% ordnance gelatin solution as a result the "inhumane M16 bullet" claim, which ultimately led the Army to have him establish the Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory to study the wounding effects of small arms ammunition to provide information for gunshot wound treatment. This was years before the FBI's shootout in Miami, that led the FBI to contacting Fackler for assistance in developing a test program and criteria for selecting effective ammunition for law enforcement use. This article discusses Fackler's early work regarding the "inhumane M16 bullet" - https://sadefensejournal.com/father-of-modern-wound-ballistics/

I apologize. Until you posted that, I did not understand that Fackler's mission was to convince the Swedes and others that the 5,56 NATO was actually less lethal and wounds less devastating than they actually were. Of course, his expertise and credibility had to be greatly inflated. Also, the research and claims of real experts had to discounted and mislead about. In this he and his supporters were very successful. Also, I note that the Army did increase the twist rate and made the bullet slower and heavier by shortening the barrel and making the bullet heavier.
I am really conflicted about how to respond to this information. It is somehow telling that so many are convinced that he was correct but that seems to be the nature of man. In any case. Thanks for letting me know about the higher purpose of misinformation. Of course, you may expect to be criticized by people that know better.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I am really conflicted about how to respond to this information.

You acquired your "knowledge" from somewhere.

Post it.

 

[d2wing]

Probably everything you claim is false. All the real ballistic experts in the world. You have to decide, was Fackler right or everyone else wrong. I really don't care what you think and don't see any point in you or your snide comments or responding to them. I have no chance of changing your closed mind. People are going to follow their bias, that's human nature.

 

[481]

I have no chance of changing your closed mind.

You will need evidence to do that; unsupported opinion is insufficient.

Sharing the knowledge that you've acquired elsewhere would be a fine way to do so.

It's a perfectly reasonable request.

 

[tactikel]

Getting back to the original post, the answer to his question is maybe none of the above. The 350 legend would IMHO will fill his needs nicely. If you have an AR it’s only a barrel change and a magazine ($120 maximum).

 

[Mercy Me]

.357 tends to work better on bambi, but then again bambi has more muscle,ligaments, tendons, and bone in between shooter and shootees organs than a person.

 

[entropy]

I don't know where you're aiming point is on a deer, but the only bones in front of my target (the aorta) are ribs, which easily passed through with any .223/5.56 round. True, the foreleg bones may be in front of the aorta on a quartering to shot, but I wouldn't fire if presented that shot, I'd wait for the leg to clear the aorta heart/lung shot zone.

 

[d2wing]

You could start with every paper Shawn declares to be false, Reports by accredited ballistic engineers that belong to the international Society of Ballistic engineers and from accredited University programs, The US Army research in small caliber tests, and reports by ammunition companies. You can also read many of Fackler's papers to see his various claims. The article shared by gun rack has some good info. In particular the part about rate of displacement and resistance which I have explained before. Animal bodies are not solid or uniform. You have skin, muscle ft and bones enclosing membranes and blood vessels mostly filled with fluid. The body is 90% or so liquid. depending on type of bullet and other factors at about 2600 FPS the bodily fluids can no longer be displaced causing great resistance. This force is expended in surrounding tissue causing damage far beyond the wound channel. To illustrate, i had a 19 ft boat with a 350 Chevy motor. when still the boat was held up by displacing its weight in water. Hit the throttle and the boat starts pushing water, as speed increases the water can't get out of the way and the boat starts going over the surface or on plain. Water is sprayed out at right angles to the speeding boat and a wake of displaced water follows the boat. spreading out across the water. This is one part of how a bullet works in flesh. Of course, flesh is not uniform and is mostly liquid. Also bullets move much faster than a boat so the pressure waves are extremely faster. Hopefully this will give you an idea of how it works. If not do your own studying or believe what you want. As I understand it, Fackler doesn't believe any of this exists. I am done with this subject. I wish you all well.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

You could start with every paper Shawn declares to be false

Cite them. Provide links to them.

The body is 90% or so liquid. depending on type of bullet and other factors at about 2600 FPS the bodily fluids can no longer be displaced causing great resistance. This force is expended in surrounding tissue causing damage far beyond the wound channel.

Properly prepared and calibrated 10% Type 250A ordnance gelatin is 90% water.

Also bullets move much faster than a boat so the pressure waves are extremely faster. Hopefully this will give you an idea of how it works. If not do your own studying or believe what you want. As I understand it, Fackler doesn't believe any of this exists. I am done with this subject. I wish you all well.

Bullets transfer momentum to soft tissues, which propels them radially away from the wound track producing the temporary cavity. Velocity of the temporary cavity is about 1/10th the velocity of the penetrating bullet.

The overwhelming force resisting bullet penetration in soft tissues is inertial force. Depending on the cartridge, the inertial force involved ranges from several hundred pounds to thousands of pounds resistance to bullet passage.

Whereas the different densities of various soft tissues is the result of shear force. The shear force resistance to bullet passage is less than 50 pounds. Shear force doesn't become a factor in bullet penetration until the bullet is near the end of its penetration path and has slowed substantially.

The huge difference between inertial force resistance and shear force resistance is the reason why the criticism about "homogenous ordnance gelatin" is irrelevant.

Calibration of properly prepared Type 250A ordnance gelatin, with a BB fired at 590 fps penetrating 8.5 centimeters +/- 9 millimeters, verifies the gelatin possesses the same shear force resistance at lower velocities as typical soft tissues.

 

[d2wing]

I have wasted way too much time on this, letting it go.

 

[481]

I am curious about your post 101. You claim that Fackler operated on lots of folks shot with the 5.56 NATO. First of all, our enemies in Vietnam did not use the 5.56 NATO. It would be extremely rare to be shot with a 5.56 NATO. Fackler was a Navy coroner in Vietnam. He didn't operate on soldiers. His report was based on cadavers in cold storage for transport back to the US, He also claimed that he could not tell which were killed with 7.62 or 5,.56. He did draw diagrams of wounds. with 5.56 NATO which showed differences. No mention of wounds on live soldiers or explanation of how they got shot by 5.56 NATO. Also you claim about ballistic gelation doesn't match what Fackler said at all. He did not start using it until well after Vietnam.
Well don't bother answering Not interested in more bs.

Oh, good Heavens.

Our military surgeons didn't operate only on US personnel. Plenty of NVA/VC enemy combatants who survived battle received surgical intervention courtesy of our Army hospitals and the surgeons assigned to them. Guess what caliber the vast majority of those enemy combatants were shot with?

Despite your claim, our military surgeons operated on lots of folks shot with the 5.56 NATO. That's a fact.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I am curious about your post 101. You claim that Fackler operated on lots of folks shot with the 5.56 NATO. First of all, our enemies in Vietnam did not use the 5.56 NATO. It would be extremely rare to be shot with a 5.56 NATO. Fackler was a Navy coroner in Vietnam. He didn't operate on soldiers. His report was based on cadavers in cold storage for transport back to the US, He also claimed that he could not tell which were killed with 7.62 or 5,.56. He did draw diagrams of wounds. with 5.56 NATO which showed differences. No mention of wounds on live soldiers or explanation of how they got shot by 5.56 NATO. Also you claim about ballistic gelation doesn't match what Fackler said at all. He did not start using it until well after Vietnam.
Well don't bother answering Not interested in more bs.

I agree completely that Fackler never treated 5.56 NATO wounds because it wasn't a NATO cartridge at the time of the Vietnam war.

Please post your source that states Fackler was a coroner in Vietnam.

Friendly fire, enemy M16 battlefield pickups, and self-inflicted (accidental and intentional) M16 wounds, and surgical treatment of enemy combatants hit by M16 bullets are the sources of his experience in treating 5.56x45 wounds in Vietnam.

AK/SKS bullets frequently pass through without yawing, creating relatively mild wounds compared to M16 wounds at ranges below 100 yards. Please tell us your source in which Fackler claimed he couldn't tell the difference between 7.62x39 and 5.56x45 wounds.

Yes, Fackler developed his 10% gelatin after his time in Vietnam, when he was at the Division of Combat Casualty Care at Letterman Army Institute of Research, because all other tissue simulants at the time were not realistic, which exaggerated the wounding effects of the M16 bullet, leading to claims it was " inhumane".

 

[d2wing]

I agree completely that Fackler never treated 5.56 NATO wounds because it wasn't a NATO cartridge at the time of the Vietnam war.

Please post your source that states Fackler was a coroner in Vietnam.

Friendly fire, enemy M16 battlefield pickups, and self-inflicted (accidental and intentional) M16 wounds, and surgical treatment of enemy combatants hit by M16 bullets are the sources of his experience in treating 5.56x45 wounds in Vietnam.

AK/SKS bullets frequently pass through without yawing, creating relatively mild wounds compared to M16 wounds at ranges below 100 yards. Please tell us your source in which Fackler claimed he couldn't tell the difference between 7.62x39 and 5.56x45 wounds.

Yes, Fackler developed his 10% gelatin after his time in Vietnam, when he was at the Division of Combat Casualty Care at Letterman Army Institute of Research, because all other tissue simulants at the time were not realistic, which exaggerated the wounding effects of the M16 bullet, leading to claims it was " inhumane".

You never read what Fackler wrote.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

You never read what Fackler wrote.

I have just about every paper of Fackler's that was published regarding wound ballistics.

Please identify the specific paper.

Fackler was a general surgeon at Da Nang and because he also had plastic surgery experience, he did some of that too. Da Nang was a POW hospital and he performed trauma surgery on wounded VC and NVA POWs. He was in Da Nang during the 1968 Tet offensive.

He performed humanitarian surgeries aboard thee German hospital ship Helgoland, which was moored in Da Nang harbor on wounded Vietnamese civilians and civilians that needed corrective surgery.

Prove your claim to us that he was a Navy coroner.

 

[KansasTrapper77]

So I kinda skimmed through most of this.

The .223/5.56 vs .357 comparison is kinda apples to oranges. In a gunfight with conventional rifles of each cartridge you’d take the 5.56 every time because well its a combat rifle less than 100 years old.

I personally am not a huge 5.56 (even though I am a proud AR owner) fan. Sure its high velocity, large wound cavity, tumbling, fragmenting etc. But my redneck butt thinks of combat rifles in terms of 400~500 yards because I’m not a trained soldier and the only gunfight I’d even pretend to win is one where I am waaaaay the F away from. And this is where the light bullet high velocity .22 starts to have diminishing returns. A 16” carbine 5.56 carbine is well under 2,000 fps at 400 yards. Which on like page 2 or whatever someone claims 2,200fps creates the large wound channel. So the way I see it. In my carefully curated made up scenarios, the 5.56 carbine is still essentially a close to medium range cartridge. (Sub 400 yards) so it was probably perfect for the jungles of ‘Nam. Carry lots of ammo shoot lots of ammo at dudes less than 100 yards away. In the mountains of Afghanistan? We had problems because camel jockeys with the fat slow 7.62x39s would stay 600+ yards away and lob 139 gr slugs into the formation. And even though it wasn’t a high velocity cartridge weight would carry the day.

So to wrap this back around to .357.

You can almost never go wrong with weight. There is no replacement for displacement.
Now would I want to be at 600 yards with a .357 having a gunfight against a dude with a .556? Hell no lol. So there has to be some balance. Hence why the army has tried developing things like the 6.8, the 6.5 grendel, 6mm arc, etc.

Basically this is a very long opinionated way of saying there is a time and a place for everything. Walking the woods for deer? .357 Lever gun every single time. Civil strife? 5.56. Traveling all 50 states in an RV? .357 Mag Carbine. Shooting at Jihadis at 600 + yards? A freaking .308

P.S. I read some .45-70 gov slander. Its slow and doesn’t fragment. You should try out some handloaded Hornady FTX at 2,000+ FPS plus. Its fast enough, fragments like a mofo, and it has weight enough to carry its energy at long range. .45-70 supremacy. When someone makes an M-14 in .45-70 I’ll be buying one. Like those crazy SOBs that made M1 garands in .458 Win mag.

That is all.

 

[d2wing]

If that is correct, I apologize. It is different from the info I have. If you can reference a reliable source I appreciate it. In any case I should have stopped before this.

 

[35 Whelen]

So I kinda skimmed through most of this.

The .223/5.56 vs .357 comparison is kinda apples to oranges. In a gunfight with conventional rifles of each cartridge you’d take the 5.56 every time because well its a combat rifle less than 100 years old.

I personally am not a huge 5.56 (even though I am a proud AR owner) fan. Sure its high velocity, large wound cavity, tumbling, fragmenting etc. But my redneck butt thinks of combat rifles in terms of 400~500 yards because I’m not a trained soldier and the only gunfight I’d even pretend to win is one where I am waaaaay the F away from. And this is where the light bullet high velocity .22 starts to have diminishing returns. A 16” carbine 5.56 carbine is well under 2,000 fps at 400 yards. Which on like page 2 or whatever someone claims 2,200fps creates the large wound channel. So the way I see it. In my carefully curated made up scenarios, the 5.56 carbine is still essentially a close to medium range cartridge. (Sub 400 yards) so it was probably perfect for the jungles of ‘Nam. Carry lots of ammo shoot lots of ammo at dudes less than 100 yards away. In the mountains of Afghanistan? We had problems because camel jockeys with the fat slow 7.62x39s would stay 600+ yards away and lob 139 gr slugs into the formation. And even though it wasn’t a high velocity cartridge weight would carry the day.

So to wrap this back around to .357.

You can almost never go wrong with weight. There is no replacement for displacement.
Now would I want to be at 600 yards with a .357 having a gunfight against a dude with a .556? Hell no lol. So there has to be some balance. Hence why the army has tried developing things like the 6.8, the 6.5 grendel, 6mm arc, etc.

Basically this is a very long opinionated way of saying there is a time and a place for everything. Walking the woods for deer? .357 Lever gun every single time. Civil strife? 5.56. Traveling all 50 states in an RV? .357 Mag Carbine. Shooting at Jihadis at 600 + yards? A freaking .308

P.S. I read some .45-70 gov slander. Its slow and doesn’t fragment. You should try out some handloaded Hornady FTX at 2,000+ FPS plus. Its fast enough, fragments like a mofo, and it has weight enough to carry its energy at long range. .45-70 supremacy. When someone makes an M-14 in .45-70 I’ll be buying one. Like those crazy SOBs that made M1 garands in .458 Win mag.

That is all.

Wow....best post in this thread in some time. And I pretty much agree with everything you said.

35W