357 Magnum vs 5.56x45 in carbines

[someguy2800]

People like to paint with a huge brush when they assume what a certain cartridge is capable of. Especially 5.56x45. You cannot compare a 55 gr fmj to a proper controlled expansion bullet any more than you can compare a 110 gr xtp at 2400 fps from a 357 mag rifle to a 200 gr cast WFN.

The bullet construction and impact velocity is everything. The cartridge pushing it or the bullet weight is of far less importance until you start talking about barrier or bone penetration.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Actually, the examiner ruled that Dove's 9mm shot through Platt's right arm was the one primarily responsible for Platt's death. Mireles did kill Matix with his 357 revolver and he did fire the last shot at Platt from his 686 which was loaded with 38 Special +P (none of the agents had 357 Magnum cartridges).

Mireles fired the shots that ultimately stopped Platt and Matix.

Mireles .38 Special 158gr +P LSWCHP bullets hit Platt and Matix in the upper spinal cord, instantly paralyzing them, and stopping them.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Actually, your image(s) above prove that projectiles with an impact velocity in excess of 2,200 fps have permanent expansive wound and crush cavities.

... while projectiles with impact velocity less than 2,200 fps have only temporary and crush cavities.

Wrong again.

5.56 and 6.8 fragmented. .45-70 did not. All have similar diameter temporary cavities.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

People like to paint with a huge brush when they assume what a certain cartridge is capable of. Especially 5.56x45. You cannot compare a 55 gr fmj to a proper controlled expansion bullet any more than you can compare a 110 gr xtp at 2400 fps from a 357 mag rifle to a 200 gr cast WFN.

The bullet construction and impact velocity is everything. The cartridge pushing it or the bullet weight is of far less importance until you start talking about barrier or bone penetration.

View attachment 1183654

Deer don't have arms that get in the way or wear chest rigs with full AK magazines.

 

[BlueHeelerFl]

Probably, I haven't used any on game, but I bought some with that in mind. Just need to be aware that most .357 components are designed to work in revolvers typically giving you 1400fps, but carbines can get you up 1900-2100fps. Bullets that expand reliably out of a 2" LCR, might hold up fine in a 16" 92, but they weren't designed to, and you may well experience jacket separation, fragmentation, and poor penetration.

A JSP would hold together better than a JHP, as many designs will break apart or expand to rapidly resulting in less penetration.

With a rifle length barrel a JSP should expand nicely, most likely better than it would with some shorter revolver barrels

 

[jmr40]

For 2 legged predator protection I'd take 223 every time. Even for hunting deer size game I'd take 223 over a 357 mag. Most of the charts and data I've noted above is for 40-55 gr 223 bullets. That is a bit misleading since 60-62 gr is the lightest loads I use other than for paper punching, and I've found 75 gr bullets in 223 to be pretty effective.

But if you're talking about 4 legged predator protection I'd prefer 357 mag, but only with 180-200 gr hardcast bullets like those offered by Buffalo Bore, Double Tap and others. If you're talking about typical factory loads with 158gr or lighter bullets I wouldn't want a 357 mag or a 223.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

At least they prove that's how Fackler and his followers draw them. Your claims do match the currently prevailing wound ballistics, which were as much a result of Buford Boone (sp?) at the FBI. Basically, that guy believed this theory and a lot of LEO agencies subscribed and so the ammo companies came on-board with it because they wanted the sales.

It's not quite proven "fact." It depends a lot on how much faith one has in 10% gelatin and Boone's interpretation of Fackler's wounding theories. I don't subscribe to a particular competing theory, but I do have some doubts.

Not just Boone. Every branch of the U.S. military since the 2000's currently uses Fackler's 10% Type 250A ordnance gelatin for terminal ballistics testing, starting with the Joint Wound Ballistics - Integrated Product Team, because of it's proven accuracy to human soft tissues.

See: https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2004/arms/session9/minisi.ppt

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Terminal performance of various cartridges, including 77gr 5.56, through intervening barriers. See: https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2008/Intl/Roberts.pdf

 

[someguy2800]

Deer don't have arms that get in the way or wear chest rigs with full AK magazines.

Deer don’t have arms???? What are those thing in the front they walk on?

There are a bunch of pictures in that thread I posted of that specific bullet going through shoulders on deer and elk. There are 200 some pages of huge wound tracks on elk, moose, and bear out to 450 yards. I promise you an AK mag is not stopping practically any 5.56 round, let alone a good one.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Deer don’t have arms???? What are those thing in the front they walk on?

There are a bunch of pictures in that thread I posted of that specific bullet going through shoulders on deer and elk. There are 200 some pages of huge wound tracks on elk, moose, and bear out to 450 yards. I promise you an AK mag is not stopping practically any 5.56 round, let alone a good one.

Deer don't have arms that hold a gun and block the path of the bullet to the torso.

Look at the links I posted and you'll see that your beliefs are incorrect. 77gr works best when there is no intervening obstacle.

 

[d2wing]

For hunting the discussion should be between .223 soft points and 357 hunting bullets. 5.56 NATO is not a hunting bullet. Lots of folks have opinions, but lack real world experience.

 

[someguy2800]

Deer don't have arms that hold a gun and block the path of the bullet to the torso.

Look at the links I posted and you'll see that your beliefs are incorrect. 77gr works best when there is no intervening obstacle.

You are conflating the performance of one 77 gr bullet to be representive of all 77 gr bullets, which is nonesense. The 77 grain sierra BTHP is a terrible terminal performer which is discussed at length in the thread I referenced on the rokslide forum where they have pictures of hundreds of animals killed with various 5.56 bullets.

 

[d2wing]

.357 Magnum 125gr Jacketed Softpoint at 1400 fps:
View attachment 1183643

I see your problem. You use information from Fackler. A fraud and a liar. Complete with handdrawn charts, LOL. This discussion not about the 5.56 but it has been proven very effective for the last 50 years in spite of Fackler and his fellow haters trying to discredit it. It's a well know story. I personally preferred the M-60 and 7,62 NATO in Combat but my M-16 was way better than what the commies had.

 

[greyling22]

I won't get bogged down in lethality, but my marlin 357 gets shot about 200x for every 1 round of 223 I shoot out of an AR.

It is easier and cheaper to reload (no trimming cases! No case lube!
It is far more pleasant to shoot in terms of noise and muzzle blast
I enjoy a lever gun a lot more than an AR.

That said, I hunt with ar's. Not in 223 mind you. 223 is for the masses, and I'm way too bougie for that

 

[Shawn Dodson]

You are conflating the performance of one 77 gr bullet to be representive of all 77 gr bullets, which is nonesense. The 77 grain sierra BTHP is a terrible terminal performer which is discussed at length in the thread I referenced on the rokslide forum where they have pictures of hundreds of animals killed with various 5.56 bullets.

77gr SMK.

How many 77gr TMKs have you fired through loaded AK magazines and windshields to prove your beliefs? Zero?

77gr SMK and 77gr TMK yaw and fragment.

Both have thin jackets.

 

[dranrab]

I'll take a 5.56 over a 357 without hesitation. Most of my experience comes from 60 grain Partitions and 64 grain Nosler Bonded. There are a lot of suitable bullets though. Once you have examined the vitals of deer hit with a good 5.56 bullet you'll realize that the wounding is indistinguishable from revered rounds such as a 6.5 Creed or 7mm-08. Heart and lungs are turned to jelly.

 

[someguy2800]

77gr SMK.

How many 77gr TMKs have you fired through loaded AK magazines and windshields to prove your beliefs? Zero?

77gr SMK and 77gr TMK yaw and fragment.

Both have thin jackets.

How many living creatures have you killed with both? The TMK does not yah and fragment. It acts completely different than an OTM

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I see your problem. You use information from Fackler. A fraud and a liar. Complete with handdrawn charts, LOL. This discussion not about the 5.56 but it has been proven very effective for the last 50 years in spite of Fackler and his fellow haters trying to discredit it. It's a well know story. I personally preferred the M-60 and 7,62 NATO in Combat but my M-16 was way better than what the commies had.

The artist's illustrations are from Fackler's article, "The Wound Profile: A Visual Method for Quantifying Gunshot Wound Components," published in the Journal of Trauma.

See: https://journals.lww.com/jtrauma/ab...ofile__a_visual_method_for_quantifying.9.aspx

Fackler was such a fraud and liar his work is in use today by every agency that performs terminal ballistics tests. (Go ahead and show us your proof of fraud and dishonesty.)

See: Father of Modern Wound Ballistics - https://sadefensejournal.com/father-of-modern-wound-ballistics/

 

[Shawn Dodson]

How many living creatures have you killed with both?

By law, I can't hunt human sized game animals with 5.56. I hunt mainly with 6.8 SPC ( Hornady 110gr BTHP).

 

[Shawn Dodson]

The TMK does not yah and fragment. It acts completely different than an OTM

You are correct. It expands and fragments.

 

[d2wing]

The artist's illustrations are from Fackler's article, "The Wound Profile: A Visual Method for Quantifying Gunshot Wound Components," published in the Journal of Trauma.

See: https://journals.lww.com/jtrauma/ab...ofile__a_visual_method_for_quantifying.9.aspx

Fackler was such a fraud and liar his work is in use today by every agency that performs terminal ballistics tests. (Go ahead and show us your proof of fraud and dishonesty.)

See: Father of Modern Wound Ballistics - https://sadefensejournal.com/father-of-modern-wound-ballistics/

Ah, a journalist that quotes Fackler and his fake institute and is falsified report backed by brass that had a vendetta against the M-16. No surprise there. I will refrain from responding to your posts and falsehoods.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Ah, a journalist that quotes Fackler and his fake institute and is falsified report backed by brass that had a vendetta against the M-16. No surprise there. I will refrain from responding to your posts and falsehoods.

The author, W. Hays Parks isn't a journalist.

Parks was a Marine officer and Chief, Law of War Branch, Office of the Judge Advocate General of the Navy.

"Mr. Parks also advocated for the use of ammunition by the military that was more accurate, reliable, and hence more effective, such as "Open Tip Match" ammunition. Approval of this type of ammunition resulted in more effective fire and thereby saved American lives."

See: https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/washingtontimes/name/william-parks-obituary?id=9999842

 

[Scooter22]

LMAO. Maybe it's past my bed time but I,ve never read a more confusing, apples, oranges, I read this, I read that, ridiculous thread with more questions that don't match up for what the answer should be. From what I,ve read just get a .308 so you won't have to worry about all the "what if's"?

 

[westernrover]

People like to paint with a huge brush when they assume what a certain cartridge is capable of. Especially 5.56x45. You cannot compare a 55 gr fmj to a proper controlled expansion bullet any more than you can compare a 110 gr xtp at 2400 fps from a 357 mag rifle to a 200 gr cast WFN.

The bullet construction and impact velocity is everything. The cartridge pushing it or the bullet weight is of far less importance until you start talking about barrier or bone penetration.

View attachment 1183654

Link? I looked for it on Rokslide but didn't have enough to make my search specific.
Edit: I did find it. Long thread.

 

[westernrover]

I want to know about 223 bullet selection. Like I wrote in the OP, I have both 357 and 223/556. I have a wide variety of bullets in .357" and I'm pretty confident I have a few that have the best terminal performance available for my contingent need. My choices are influenced by my guns too which are revolvers rather than rifles.

For .223", I've done a lot of reading and I did post up in the reloading forum last summer to get some more hints. I had to narrow my choices by the 1:9 twist my barrel has -- no 77 gr. TMK whether it's good or not. I settled on M193 or my own 55 gr. FMJ loads for paper/plinking/practice. For when terminal effectiveness counts, I have to factor in my 16.5" barrel. I was looking for TTSX, or Lehigh Controlled Chaos. I found Hornady CX seconds that afforded me greater quantity. I'm still curious to learn more about other hunting bullets in .223" for 5.56x45 that I could use in small quantities. I'm not sure yet that I would, but I am curious.