.357 no better than a .38?

[Charles S]

I'm guessing the normal .357 round isn't much better than a .38 +P round out of a snub nose if it's even better at all.

Your guess would be substantially incorrect.

The hottest 38 +P+ loadings out of a 4 inch barrel are note equal to the velocity and energy that a 357 can produce even in the snub nose configuration.

38 4 inch barrel

Corbon 110 gr +P+ 38 loaded to 1250 FPS and 382 foot pounds energy

38

Buffalo Bore 125 gr loaded to 1050 and 306 foot pounds energy

357 3 inch barrel

Buffalo bore 125 gr 1476 foot pound and 604 foot pound energy

Let us assume a 200 FPS loss for the 3/4 an inch shorter barrel of the SP101 and the 357 load is still superior.

My personal pet load is Rem 125 gr SJHP's over 17 gr of 2400 at a brisk 150 fps out of SP101. There is not a 38 load that can approach that energy.

 

[paddling_man]

"Here are Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel numbers for their .38 Spl +P and .357 Mag from a >2" barrel:
.38 Spl +P 135 gr - 860 fps 222 ft/lbs
.357 Mag 135 gr - 990 fps 294 ft/lbs"

So, based on the above, the energy from a .38 +p and a .357 are neglible (at least it appears) out of a sub two inch barrel.

How about with a 2-5/8" SP101. I've found a good deal on a SP101 with a 2-5/8" but it is only 38, not .357. For a heavy little gun, I've been thinking maybe I should stick with a 357 but if the difference is this small, maybe not.

Anyone?

Thanks!

 

[Charles S]

So, based on the above, the energy from a .38 +p and a .357 are neglible (at least it appears) out of a sub two inch barrel.

The Spear 357 load you list is a medium 357 magnum load and not a full power loading. The 357 and the 38 as illustrated in the above post are not equal in short barrels.

I consistently chronograph 357 145 gr Winchester Silvertips at 1200 FPS in SP101 with a 2 1/4 inch barrel. Please feel free to find a 38 special load that matches that velocity.

Please feel free to refer to the author Mr. Camp's article on the topic.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38vs357snub.htm

How about with a 2-5/8" SP101.

Unless you have a found a custom SP101, such an animal does not exist.

All Ruger SP101's in 38 and 357 are either 2 1/4 or 3 1/16 inches in barrel length.

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdResults?function=famid&famid=9&variation=Satin%20Stainless&bct=Yes&type=Revolver

 

[paddling_man]

Ah... just by reading the preceding post, I must have missed where that was a med load. Thanks for pointing that out. So, full power .357 loads out of a short barrel revolver have SIGNIFICANTLY more power than than a strong 38+p counterpart? (ie. more than 60-80 ft-lbs? I realize that is still somewhat significant but not double the energy.)

Regarding the SP... Hmmm... It looks like I've got more checking to do regarding the barrel length. Have those always been the two only offerings for the SP from Ruger or is that only the recent catalog?

Thanks!

 

[Phil DeGraves]

I think the ease in shooting and speedloading the .38 would offset the minimal ballistic differences in a carry gun. Now if it's a field gun with a 6" or more barrel, that's a different story. .357 all the way.

 

[Charles S]

Have those always been the two only offerings for the SP from Ruger or is that only the recent catalog?

That is a recent catalog, but it is has not changed. I bought my SP101 in the early 90's and it was the same then. Ruger did offer the Speed Six with a 2 3/4 inch barrel (offically it was 2 7/8). Great gun if you find one.

See Buffalo Bore - I realize they list a 3 inch barrel, but one will not loose a tremendous amount of velocity (I find I loose between 75 and 150 fps from a 3 inch to a 2 inch gun).

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#357

I think the ease in shooting and speedloading the .38 would offset the minimal ballistic differences in a carry gun. Now if it's a field gun with a 6" or more barrel, that's a different story. .357 all the way.

My defensive load of choice in smaller 357 magnums is almost always the hotter 38 loadings. My current favorite (Since Corbon discontinued their midrange 115 gr 357 loading) is the Corbon 115 gr +P+ loading.

 

[Confederate]

When first introduced in 1934, the .357 magnum (to use a modern term) "wowed" the highway patrol officers it had been designed for. They loved the way it punched through cars and trucks and tore tires to shreds. Their old .38s frequently bounced off tires, especially with snubbies. But now snubbie .357s would rip tires to pieces and go through windshields instead of bouncing off them. Later, when JHPs came along, it made it that much better.

A snubbie .357 will generally significantly outperform a 6-inch .38 with the same bullet weight, especially when optimized for short barrels.

Now that the guns are smaller, they're that much better. Don't let anyone snow you about it. The .357 is a wonderful caliber. Back in the '80s, the 125gr JHP/JSP from a 4-inch barrel would zip through many bullet resistant vests worn by law enforcement officers, though it was kept a well guarded secret. At the time "cop killer" bullets were an issue, people like Massad Ayoob were terrified that the anti-gunners would find out about the 125gr JHPs and try to outlaw magnums. Now technology has taken care of that problem, but it was a potential problem for quite a while. I was told about it "off the record" and never published it, but that was the only conventional handgun round that could defeat a vest. Even today, a magnum round will generally still get the attention of someone with a vest, even if it doesn't pierce it.

I have a lot of respect for the .357.

The Ruger Security-Six is a potent firearm, even with a 2.75-inch barrel.

 

[Charles S]

Confederate,

Great post....That is a beautiful Ruger. I would love to have that exact model Security Six. I have the Speed Six in the same barrel length stainless, it is my favorite 357.

 

[shu]

Not so fast, guys. Every pistol has its purpose. First handgun I bought was a S&W M36 - 5 shot snubby w/ small grip. Built for regular 38spl, but will tolerate occassional +P.

It is lighter than a gun built to take 357mag. It is lighter to carry.

It has less recoil than 357mag. It will get back on target faster.

If I got another small revolver, it would be a SP101 3 inch. But it would not take the place of the little J frame.

 

[wcwhitey]

No doubt that the .357 is superior in every regard to the .38, whether it is snubby or service length barrel (3,4,6" etc.) Not looking to change the subject or anything, but I have never personally been able to control a .357 small enough to carry. I have owned a 3" model 65, a 2 1/2" Model 19 and I have shot enough of the newer airwieght, titanium .38's to know that I really don't want to try them in .357. I can keep my 640 (.38 no dash) or my beloved Model 10 under control with double taps, rapid fire, timed fire, etc. all day long. I have a NYPD 64-1 3" with bobbed hammer that thinks its a match gun. The extra velocity and Ft/Llbs are great when we are talking about a service/holster gun but not a snubby concealed carry gun. I think the .357 and the S&W K frame are probably the best service revolver/caliber/gun combination ever invented but just not in a concealed 2" J frame or 2 1/2" K frame round butt configuration. I think when it comes to the 2" small and light frame .357's that engineering has overshadowed physics. For a snubby I will take a .38 as there are things more important that sheer balistics. JMHO Bill

 

[Pistol Toter]

Do Not Discount the 2.25 Ruger SP101!!

Gentlemen, Gentlemen: Do Not Discount the 2.25" Ruger SP101. Mine is on my hip as I type this. It is loaded with the Remington 125 grn Gold Sabre, the med. vel. loading and is, IMHO, quite controlable while still offering full bore .357 performance. My son has the 3 1/16" model and I find neither gun superior to the other. The shorter tube may and I repeat MAY draw a tad faster. Both are fine CCW's. I'm not impressed with the published ballistics data of the CCI Short Barrel munitions and continue to carry my above listed choice.

 

[MikePGS]

Can you conceal a revolver with a 4 inch barrel? And just out of curiousity... how do you calculate foot-pounds? how do you convert grains into pounds?

 

[OLD DOMENION]

The standard for knock down power is 350 foot pounds.
On the high end, perhaps +P, you might get get that from a 110 or 125 grain .38 Special with a 4 inch barrel.
There is a standard of 30 feet person loss if you test with a real gun.
If you use a UNIVERSAL RECEIVER it is 75 feet per secoond.
To look at another way...
Find out what the velocity of your favorate factory handgun ammo. is and weather it was obtained fron a real gun and what barrel length. Subtact 30 or 75 fps for each inch less you have. A .38 Special will coome into the 700 fps and 200 foot pounds of muzzel engergy.

 

[unspellable]

357 vs 38

There's a middle ground out there. There are lite 357 factory loads, hotter than a 38 +P but lighter than a standard 357. The ones that I know of have jacketed hollow points for small revolvers such as snubbies.

Remington loads a 125 grain jhp at modest velocity that ought to be OK in the S&W 19 as it runs at about the same velocity as their 158 grain loads.

Years ago Sako sold a lite 357 that had a lead semiwadcutter in it for plinking and small game. I rather liked it for that sort of thing but haven't seen any in years so it's back to the loading press for that.

 

[Charles S]

And just out of curiousity... how do you calculate foot-pounds? how do you convert grains into pounds?

The formula that is the easiest for myself to use is:

Velocity in FPS squared multiplied by the bullet weight in grains and then divide the answer by 450,240. That will give you the answer in foot/pounds of energy at the range where the velocity was obtained (most often you are using muzzle velocity).

Nice looking hog. I bet it was a good eater too.

Thanks, yes it was. We made mostly sausage with it. Very good.

 

[Charles S]

Pretty soon I'll need to plan another hog hunt, though.

Great time of year to hog hunt, there won't be a lot of people in the woods. I love to hunt this time a year.

 

[tinygnat219]

Get the .357 Snubbie, you can shoot both .38 SPL and .357 out of the same gun. .357 in a snub nosed is more potent than the 38 SPL out of a snub nose because it's a more powerful round. That gunstore employee was pushing his .38 SPL inventory.

 

[Robo_Railer]

The formula that is the easiest for myself to use is:
Velocity in FPS squared multiplied by the bullet weight in grains and then divide the answer by 450,240.

Thanks for posting that.

For the math-impaired members (I'm one), you can use this to just punch in the values and have it crunch the numbers for you:
Energy Ultra Calculator--Solves for Mass Velocity or Energy.
I know the creator of that site from the GuitarNuts 2 Forum. I've used his Resistors In Parallel Calculator for awhile now, but just discovered a bunch of other cool stuff on his home page. Check it out!

 

[Jkwas]

I would say the 357 in a snub is better for bruising your hand, taking skin off your thumb, making you deaf, and blinding you with the fireball. At least that's been my experience.

 

[MikePGS]

Thank you charles and robo both for helping me with that. Heres another question though... how to you determine the effect of the barrel length? say i have the stats for a gun with a four inch barrel and i want to shoot it out of a three inch. Is there some standard way to figure that out, or do i just subtract a certain amount? thanks again for the great help.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

I have owned and fired many .38 spl and .357mags. in snubby lengths. The only difference I have noticed in shooting them (from the hand's point of view) is more muzzle flash and NOISE from the .357s. I haven't found the .357s any more difficult to hold or regain the target than a mild .38spl.

 

[Charles S]

I haven't found the .357s any more difficult to hold or regain the target than a mild .38spl.

All I have go to say is Wow. I find a very significant difference.

With my club timer I can average about 0.40 splits from my SP101 on a B27 with very good accuracy at 5 yards. With 357 my splits move up to about 0.75 to 0.85. I am slower (by a factor of 2), they are not at all comfortable for a long shooting session (after 100 rounds of 357 out of a snub I am done). I can shoot 38s even in the +P+ configuration for several hundred rounds without it ever bothering me.

I do a little better with my Speed Six, and am faster still with my snub 686. To me there is definitely a difference in my ability to regain the target (as exemplified by my times).

 

[Don Lu]

Im learning alot in this thread !

 

[Kimber1911_06238]

I just bought a ruger gp100 yesterday with a 4" barrel. It may not be the best choice for concealed carry, but it shoots like a wet dream.

 

[tipoc]

From Mike PGS " Heres another question though... how to you determine the effect of the barrel length?"

There is no standard formula for this. The old saw that for every inch less of barrel you lose 25 fps of velocity, was never true. How much decrease in velocity one may get depends on a number of factors. It will vary based on the weight of the bullet, on the load, on the type of bullet, etc. It will vary based on the tolerences of the gun and may vary from one gun to another even from the same manufacturer. So one can either test the gun over a velocity gage or you can just guess about 25-45 fps. But that's just a guestimate. Going from a 3" to a 2" however won't make any significant difference in a self defense piece intended for close quarters in terms of effectiveness of the round on the target. It may make a difference in terms of recoil and muzzle blast.

So the most useful thing folks can do is to take their 2" and 3" .357s out to the range often, with a variety of loads and learn what works best for you. In your hands, out your piece. Sometimes a change of grips helps. Since well placed shots trump caliber shoot the best round you can find that you can control.

tipoc