.357 Performance out of a 2" barrel
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1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
How often does the private citizen have need to shoot through car doors or heavy barricades?
If you're convinced that you need the power of the .357 Magnum for concealed carry, then by all means...carry one. I'm not trying to convince you to do otherwise. Just tryin' to shed some light on a largely misunderstood subject. Too much worry over velocity and energy and "knockdown" power, and not enough over accurate shot placement and fast repeat hits.
As Jeff Cooper responded to the Marshall/Sanow low rating of 65% for .45 hardball.
"Shoot twice."
If you're convinced that you need the power of the .357 Magnum for concealed carry, then by all means...carry one. I'm not trying to convince you to do otherwise. Just tryin' to shed some light on a largely misunderstood subject. Too much worry over velocity and energy and "knockdown" power, and not enough over accurate shot placement and fast repeat hits.
As Jeff Cooper responded to the Marshall/Sanow low rating of 65% for .45 hardball.
"Shoot twice."
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
I think that the 158-grain .357 bullet is plenty as long as it can reach the vitals. At 850-900 fps, it'll do that easily on a frontal shot, even if the guy is fairly big...as long as it goes where it needs to go. The sniper's triangle is a good target area.
If shot placement is bad, then another 300-400 fps won't increase your odds very much, if at all.
That's why we shoot until the target changes shape or catches fire. More rounds means a greater chance of a vital hit. Faster hits ends the fight sooner. Fast is good. The sooner it's over, the less hurt you get.
I know that there are people who can control heavy recoiling handguns. I used to be able to do pretty well with a 4-inch Model 29 with full-power ammo...and by that, I mean the original 240-grain gas-checked LSWC that gave meaning to .44 magnum.
The problem is that it was on the range. In the real world, we don't always have the option of getting a perfect grip on the gun...or even the option of having a two-hand grip.
In a perfect world, we do...but the world isn't perfect, and in close-range emergencies of the bad breath kind...we often find ourselves fending off an attack from a blunt or edged weapon with one hand, and clawing for the gun with the other...hoping to bring it into play before the guy caves in our skulls or disembowels us.
Situations like this also usually take place under low-light conditions. The flash of a full-house .357 Magnum fired in a 2-inch barrel will blind you as surely as a paparazi's flashbulb in your face. Fighting for your life blind is not the path to survival. We would all do well to consider these things before we settle on a defensive gun/caliber. If we wait until the demon is on us, we may discover too late that it wasn't the best choice.
If shot placement is bad, then another 300-400 fps won't increase your odds very much, if at all.
That's why we shoot until the target changes shape or catches fire. More rounds means a greater chance of a vital hit. Faster hits ends the fight sooner. Fast is good. The sooner it's over, the less hurt you get.
I know that there are people who can control heavy recoiling handguns. I used to be able to do pretty well with a 4-inch Model 29 with full-power ammo...and by that, I mean the original 240-grain gas-checked LSWC that gave meaning to .44 magnum.
The problem is that it was on the range. In the real world, we don't always have the option of getting a perfect grip on the gun...or even the option of having a two-hand grip.
In a perfect world, we do...but the world isn't perfect, and in close-range emergencies of the bad breath kind...we often find ourselves fending off an attack from a blunt or edged weapon with one hand, and clawing for the gun with the other...hoping to bring it into play before the guy caves in our skulls or disembowels us.
Situations like this also usually take place under low-light conditions. The flash of a full-house .357 Magnum fired in a 2-inch barrel will blind you as surely as a paparazi's flashbulb in your face. Fighting for your life blind is not the path to survival. We would all do well to consider these things before we settle on a defensive gun/caliber. If we wait until the demon is on us, we may discover too late that it wasn't the best choice.
The Lone Haranguer
Member
It doesn't work that way. The .357 is slowed down by the two-inch barrel compared to a four- or six-inch, but with both from the same length of barrel, as it started out much faster than the .38 to begin with, it exits the barrel much faster as well. (I hope that made sense!
)1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Way back in the days before the farmers stood at the bridge on Lexington Green...the British determined that the best slammarms effect was to be had with a simple formula.
"Heavy ball...light charge."
It worked well in 1775 and it'll work just as well today.
"Heavy ball...light charge."
It worked well in 1775 and it'll work just as well today.
How often does the private citizen have need to shoot through car doors or heavy barricades? i dont consider sheet rock a heavy barricade. where do you get that??
"If you're convinced that you need the power of the .357 Magnum for concealed carry,......
"a crazed employee running someone down in a car etc....ive read about it occurring.
you tell me...i dont know. but i didnt necessarily specify private citizen...whatever that means.
i didnt say i was convinced of anything...i was asking if 1200+ or so fps is doable and actually occurring in 2" 357 snub?? can you shed light on that???
"If you're convinced that you need the power of the .357 Magnum for concealed carry,......
"a crazed employee running someone down in a car etc....ive read about it occurring.
you tell me...i dont know. but i didnt necessarily specify private citizen...whatever that means.
i didnt say i was convinced of anything...i was asking if 1200+ or so fps is doable and actually occurring in 2" 357 snub?? can you shed light on that???
I mean if the short barrlelputs the ballistics of the .357 down far enough that a .38 +P is right there with it ...
It doesn't work that way. The .357 is slowed down by the two-inch barrel .....
what do you think ' puts short barrel puts ballistics down to' means?
i have read the claim that a 357 leaving a 2" barrel is nearly at the same speed as a 38spl +p...it seither true or it isnt?? if it leaves the barrel 300 fps or so faster that doesnt sound like near the same speed.
It doesn't work that way. The .357 is slowed down by the two-inch barrel .....
what do you think ' puts short barrel puts ballistics down to' means?
i have read the claim that a 357 leaving a 2" barrel is nearly at the same speed as a 38spl +p...it seither true or it isnt?? if it leaves the barrel 300 fps or so faster that doesnt sound like near the same speed.
"I mean if the short barrlelputs the ballistics of the .357 down far enough that a .38 +P is right there with it ...
It doesn't work that way."
did that post say anything about the way something worked???
a 2" barrel puts the ballistics....and you get something doesnt work that way????
It doesn't work that way."
did that post say anything about the way something worked???
a 2" barrel puts the ballistics....and you get something doesnt work that way????
Look at these pages and compare them:
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/38special.html
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html
Note that he measures barrel length from the breach face for revolvers. A 2" snub plus chamber length will be bit longer than 3". Look at the data for the 3" barrel it will be the closest to a 2" snub. You can also look at the Bond Arms derringer with a 3" barrel. The cylinder gap will cost a little velocity loss. But not enough to drop it under 1200fps.
I have a 340pd, 12 ounce 357 mag, and it chronos over 1200fps with the Federal and Corbon loads. Hand-loading you can get more than this if your hand is up to it. Controllability with these load in such a light gun is not to good. I still haven't decided what round to carry in it.
i am not sure about the truthfulness of your 340 pd. i see some places that say its scandium? and other places that say its aluminum. i have never seen one in the gun store i go to. i dont know if it is a real firearm or not.
i am not concerned about fake ballistics by the inch non measurements.
i am asking about a 2" barrel. not barrel plus anything else making 3". also, if barrel length and velocity isnt necessarily linear that site would do me no good.
its a simple question really..if you cant anwer it with your own truthful experience or say what a taurus 605 with a 2" barrel fires 357 mag at dont answer.
i am not concerned about fake ballistics by the inch non measurements.
i am asking about a 2" barrel. not barrel plus anything else making 3". also, if barrel length and velocity isnt necessarily linear that site would do me no good.
its a simple question really..if you cant anwer it with your own truthful experience or say what a taurus 605 with a 2" barrel fires 357 mag at dont answer.
nowhere on the ballisitcs by the inch inch linked site is a common 2" revolver listed...some crap aabout a bond derringer that probably noone carries and is a fake gun.
a barrel is a barrel..a cylinder is a cylinder. any body that calls a cylinder a barrel is a fraud.
the bullet doesnt fire from the back of the cylinder.
a barrel is a barrel..a cylinder is a cylinder. any body that calls a cylinder a barrel is a fraud.
the bullet doesnt fire from the back of the cylinder.
Even though you called me a liar, I'll try again.
I already answered your question. To be more specific for 357 mag 125 gr SJHP in 340pd:
Federal 1222 fps
Corbon 1248 fps
Remington 1241 fps
The Remington velocity is from a very old box of ammo, somewhere around 1975. The others are from recently manufactured ammo.
I already answered your question. To be more specific for 357 mag 125 gr SJHP in 340pd:
Federal 1222 fps
Corbon 1248 fps
Remington 1241 fps
The Remington velocity is from a very old box of ammo, somewhere around 1975. The others are from recently manufactured ammo.
One more time just in case I didn't make it clear. Semi-autos are measured from the back of the chamber. The chamber in a Semi-auto is analogous to the cylinder in a revolver. The site decided to standardize using the semi-auto style of measuring barrel length.
Do you really believe that any gun you haven't seen in the gunshop you go to is fake.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Yes. 1200 fps from a 2-inch .357 is doable with 110-125 grain bullets. Easily. You can even make that number with the old .357/158-grain LSWC...but you probably wouldn't care to shoot it in a lightweight 2-inch revolver. It's painful in a 4-inch K-Frame with the OEM Magna stocks. (tm) It's unpleasant in a SP101 with the rubber grips...and that's a fairly heavy revolver for its size. I imagine that it would be awful with a 20-ounce scandium-framed gun.
Sheetrock doesn't require .357 Magnum power to penetrate it. A .22 will go through two sheetrock walls.
Revolver measurements are taken from the face of the barrel...or the forcing cone if you prefer. Autos are taken from the breechface, and include the chamber in the barrel measurement. By that standard, a 2-inch .357 revolver barrel would be about 3.3 inches long. Using revolver measurement standards, a 5-inch 1911 would have a 4.1-inch barrel. Shotgun and rifle barrels are measured to include the chamber.
Sheetrock doesn't require .357 Magnum power to penetrate it. A .22 will go through two sheetrock walls.
Revolver measurements are taken from the face of the barrel...or the forcing cone if you prefer. Autos are taken from the breechface, and include the chamber in the barrel measurement. By that standard, a 2-inch .357 revolver barrel would be about 3.3 inches long. Using revolver measurement standards, a 5-inch 1911 would have a 4.1-inch barrel. Shotgun and rifle barrels are measured to include the chamber.
bestseller92
Member
Thanks, THPlanes, those are the exact velocity numbers I was looking for....
MCgunner
Member
I got 1300+ FPS with a 140 grain bullet from a 2.25" SP101 as I recall. Heavies work better out of short barrels. They don't accelerate as fast as the 125s and less and catch more of the pressure peak, at least that's my theory from my chronographing of various handloads from various barrel lengths.
And, then, Alfred Nobel was born.
And, then, Alfred Nobel was born.
On 3/27/2006
I shot the following over my chronograph:
Remington .357 Magnum 125 grain SJHP
From the following guns:
Ruger GP100 4 inch barrel
Ruger SP101 2.25 inch barrel
Here are the results:
.357 / 4"
Average velocity (f.p.s.).....1490
Muzzle energy (ft. lbs.).....616
.357 / 2.25"
Average velocity (f.p.s.).....1332
Muzzle energy (ft. lbs.).....492
I shot the following over my chronograph:
Remington .357 Magnum 125 grain SJHP
From the following guns:
Ruger GP100 4 inch barrel
Ruger SP101 2.25 inch barrel
Here are the results:
.357 / 4"
Average velocity (f.p.s.).....1490
Muzzle energy (ft. lbs.).....616
.357 / 2.25"
Average velocity (f.p.s.).....1332
Muzzle energy (ft. lbs.).....492
Last edited:
Harley Quinn
Member
Heavier bullets= more recoil...
125 grain out of the 2" (if you have to do it) would be my choice...Below stats not out of a 2"
125 grain out of the 2" (if you have to do it) would be my choice...Below stats not out of a 2"
JerryM
Member
My own personal chronograph shows that the .357 has slightly over 300 fps more velocity than similar weight .38 Spl loads.
I would not want a light weight .357. anc carry a 642 when I carry a revolver. However, I do find the steel J-frames like my 640 and M60 3" OK for 25 or so rounds at the range.
Regards,
Jerry
I would not want a light weight .357. anc carry a 642 when I carry a revolver. However, I do find the steel J-frames like my 640 and M60 3" OK for 25 or so rounds at the range.
Regards,
Jerry
Cards81fan
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Harley Quinn said:
That is not entirely true. Pure measurable recoil is a result of the energy produced by the projectile leaving the gun (momentum, specifically as described in Newton's Third Law). The bullet weight is part of the energy equation, but the velocity is another part.
"Felt" recoil then varies based on the characteristics of the firearm (autoloader vs revolver, alloy vs steel vs polymer, bore axis, etc.), cartridge pressure, grip technique, and a host of other variables.
I can shoot .38 and .357 out of my 3" Rossi steel revolver, and the .357 certainly has more kick than .38. Even with the same or lighter projectile. This seems obvious, but just demonstrates that the equation has more variables to it than the projectile mass.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Quote/MCGunner and Cards:
>I got 1300+ FPS with a 140 grain bullet from a 2.25" SP101 as I recall. Heavies work better out of short barrels. They don't accelerate as fast as the 125s and less and catch more of the pressure peak, at least that's my theory from my chronographing of various handloads from various barrel lengths. <
That has a lot of merit, but it's not the peak exactly...since even slow burners in pistol powders usually peak at about a half to 3/4 inch of bullet travel. It's how long the peak is held that makes the difference. Remember that bullet acceleration and the force requirement for a given rate of acceleration is what determines both recoil and velocity.
And:
>>Pure measurable recoil is a result of the energy produced by the projectile leaving the gun (momentum, specifically as described in Newton's Third Law). <<
Let's do a hypothetical gun. ( I love those)
Two revolvers...identical in every way except barrel length. (I know. There's a difference in weight, but we're pretending. Anything is possible in a make-believe world.)
One has a 10-inch barrel and the other is a 2-incher.
Assuming the same bullet, and assuming that pressures are safe...the muzzle velocity is identical in both. Let's say .357 Magnum/158/1200 fps Only the powder type changes in order to produce the same velocity.
Because velocity and bullet mass are the same...momentums will be likewise.
Which gun has the greater force requirement? The one that accelerates its bullet to 1200fps in 10 inches of barrel...or the one that accelerates its bullet to 1200 fps in 2 inches?
In which gun will the recoil be sharper?
So, maybe adjusting the powder burn rate to one better suited to a lighter bullet in a short barrel would be the way to go at this...assuming that one could match it exactly so that the bullet exited just at, or just a millisecond after the peak.
Internal ballistics is a fascinating and multi-faceted study. No?
>I got 1300+ FPS with a 140 grain bullet from a 2.25" SP101 as I recall. Heavies work better out of short barrels. They don't accelerate as fast as the 125s and less and catch more of the pressure peak, at least that's my theory from my chronographing of various handloads from various barrel lengths. <
That has a lot of merit, but it's not the peak exactly...since even slow burners in pistol powders usually peak at about a half to 3/4 inch of bullet travel. It's how long the peak is held that makes the difference. Remember that bullet acceleration and the force requirement for a given rate of acceleration is what determines both recoil and velocity.
And:
>>Pure measurable recoil is a result of the energy produced by the projectile leaving the gun (momentum, specifically as described in Newton's Third Law). <<
Let's do a hypothetical gun. ( I love those)
Two revolvers...identical in every way except barrel length. (I know. There's a difference in weight, but we're pretending. Anything is possible in a make-believe world.)
One has a 10-inch barrel and the other is a 2-incher.
Assuming the same bullet, and assuming that pressures are safe...the muzzle velocity is identical in both. Let's say .357 Magnum/158/1200 fps Only the powder type changes in order to produce the same velocity.
Because velocity and bullet mass are the same...momentums will be likewise.
Which gun has the greater force requirement? The one that accelerates its bullet to 1200fps in 10 inches of barrel...or the one that accelerates its bullet to 1200 fps in 2 inches?
In which gun will the recoil be sharper?
So, maybe adjusting the powder burn rate to one better suited to a lighter bullet in a short barrel would be the way to go at this...assuming that one could match it exactly so that the bullet exited just at, or just a millisecond after the peak.
Internal ballistics is a fascinating and multi-faceted study. No?
Cards81fan
Member.
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It most certainly is! About the only thing I wished to (and am capable of, frankly) point out with my statements is that there are more variables involved in this than most people realize. It's an "exact science" that, for the most part, is being kicked around by a bunch of unexacting enthusiasts. We can only control so many variables in our experiments.
Heck, even ambient air temperature and pressure would have an affect on bullet velocities, if tried to dissect things to that much detail!
Heck, even ambient air temperature and pressure would have an affect on bullet velocities, if tried to dissect things to that much detail!
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