Harley Quinn
Member
True, but the controlling of it, is another thing for many...38 snubbie is as a rule, backup and close encounters, second and third shots are easier to come by
The link is a good read, that wnycollector put up
.357 Performance out of a 2" barrel
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True, but the controlling of it, is another thing for many...38 snubbie is as a rule, backup and close encounters, second and third shots are easier to come by
The link is a good read, that wnycollector put up
JFrame
Member
I had an opportunity to somewhat revisit this issue after acquiring my first uber-lightweight .357 a few weeks ago (a S&W 360 PD -- which I believe is the lightest production .357 made).
I find the handgun extremely pleasant to shoot with standard .38's (Remington UMC 130-grain ammo).
I next fired Winchester Supreme Elite .38+P ammo. It was also perfectly fine, and I was able to place 'em where I want 'em.
I then fired one of the recommended .357's for ultra-light revolvers -- Remington Golden Sabers, a "medium-velocity" load. Okay -- I was still putting 'em where I wanted 'em -- but the experience was definitely becoming "hairy." A steady diet of the GS's would be quite a test of my nerves.
I finally went to some relatively full-pressure .357's (in my case, some old yellow-box UMC ammo I happened to have lying around). This was definitely getting into the "holy crap!" category. The recoil was tolerable but considerable, and I was starting to get trigger finger whack. I can imagine a bloody hand after a range session of exclusively these rounds.
This experience has stoked my interest in the new Speer Gold Dot "Short Barrel" magnum load. At a rated 990 FPS for a 135-grain HP slug, it should provide significant oomph over even a 125-grain +P .38 running 150 FPS less, while still providing good control-ability. At least on paper, it would seem to constitute a "sweet spot" between the .38 +P and the Remington Golden Saber...
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I find the handgun extremely pleasant to shoot with standard .38's (Remington UMC 130-grain ammo).
I next fired Winchester Supreme Elite .38+P ammo. It was also perfectly fine, and I was able to place 'em where I want 'em.
I then fired one of the recommended .357's for ultra-light revolvers -- Remington Golden Sabers, a "medium-velocity" load. Okay -- I was still putting 'em where I wanted 'em -- but the experience was definitely becoming "hairy." A steady diet of the GS's would be quite a test of my nerves.
I finally went to some relatively full-pressure .357's (in my case, some old yellow-box UMC ammo I happened to have lying around). This was definitely getting into the "holy crap!" category. The recoil was tolerable but considerable, and I was starting to get trigger finger whack. I can imagine a bloody hand after a range session of exclusively these rounds.
This experience has stoked my interest in the new Speer Gold Dot "Short Barrel" magnum load. At a rated 990 FPS for a 135-grain HP slug, it should provide significant oomph over even a 125-grain +P .38 running 150 FPS less, while still providing good control-ability. At least on paper, it would seem to constitute a "sweet spot" between the .38 +P and the Remington Golden Saber...
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1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Quote:
>>This was definitely getting into the "holy crap!" category.<<
I feel your pain. If you think those Remingtons were rough, you should try a few of the original .357 Magnum loading...those that were offered back when "Magnum" meant something. It was a 158-grain LSWC, and it was a handful in an N-Frame Smith. In my 4-inch Model 13...with the OEM "Magna" grips...it's a downright unpleasant experience.
I wouldn't want to even think about firing it in a J-frame revolver.
It was dropped from the lineup in the mid-70s.
>>This was definitely getting into the "holy crap!" category.<<
I feel your pain. If you think those Remingtons were rough, you should try a few of the original .357 Magnum loading...those that were offered back when "Magnum" meant something. It was a 158-grain LSWC, and it was a handful in an N-Frame Smith. In my 4-inch Model 13...with the OEM "Magna" grips...it's a downright unpleasant experience.
I wouldn't want to even think about firing it in a J-frame revolver.
It was dropped from the lineup in the mid-70s.
JFrame
Member
Uhm -- no thank you...
I'll pass!
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ThomasT
Member
I don't know about that without testing it. Remember one of the great qualities of the dead soft lead bullets used in BP rifles was the abililty of the bullets to hold together. I think the word "cohesive" was what writers like Sam Fadala used to describe how well pure lead bullets stayed together.
The first deer I shot with a 50 cal BP rifle was only 13 yards away. I was reading a book and didn't see him till he was right on top of me. I shot him just slightly quartering away and the bullet went in by the sternum and through the ribs to the off side and stayed under the skin for about 8-9". The impact velocity had to be around 1500-1600fps and the bullet just flattend out and hung together. It still weighed about 170grs from a 175gr starting weight. I still have that bullet too.
In the end I suppose it doesn't matter since the remington bullets aren't available anyway. I do know the speer bullets hold together just fine. I also relube them with Rooster Jacket and have zero problems with leading.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Ratshooter...Solid lead bullets do hold together well, even at high impact speeds. Hollowpoints...not so well. In my testing, I did adjust for bullet hardness by bumping up the velocities on the Speer slugs to 1250 fps, fired into ballistic gelatin from a distance of 10 feet...or about the average distance for a defensive shooting involving a private citizen...and the wound channel had lots of lead fragments scattered throughout. Average recovered weight of the bullets was around 95 grains.
MCgunner
Member
I've chronographed various .357 HOT handloads from various barrel lengths. I like the heavier bullets, 140 for carry, in snubbies because they perform better. The 125 grain stuff seems to accelerate so fast that most of the pressure peak comes with the bullet OUT of the barrel, leads to tremendous muzzle blast and milder recoil, but I was getting only 1102 fps/337 ft lbs from a 125 grain Sierra over 18 grains of 2400 from a 2.25" Ruger SP101. Weigh that against 1332 fps/551 ft lbs for my 140 grain load with the same powder. You might get up to 400 ft lbs out of the 125 grain load using a faster powder, maybe blue dot, but I get 410 ft lbs out of a 3" 9x19 +P 6.4 grains unique/115 grain Hornady JHP/XTP. That's a 14 ounce gun, more compact and pocketable and easier to shoot with less muzzle flash, blast. I don't really care about .357 in anything less than 3", but when I carry a 3" gun, I carry a 140 grain JHP for this reason AND it's very accurate, a Speer bullet.
Regards to whether .38 Special is better, it certainly is easier to shoot and I carry a 17 ounce snubby a lot with +P loads, but I do NOT get over about 275 ft lbs from it using 158+Ps. The .357 has better ballistics, especially with the heavier bullet, if you can shoot it well. Muzzle blast is still pretty fierce. 9x19 seems to be the best answer to ME for a gun this size, but YMMV. It's a far more efficient round, though, in this caliber owing to the pressure limits and the fast powders that work best in its case, and it has less recoil and muzzle flash/bang than the hot magnum loads in short barrels.
125 grain JHP/18.0 grains 2400......1102 fps/337 ft lbs
140 grain JHP/17.0 grains 2400......1332 fps/551 ft lbs
180 grain SWC/13.8 grains AA#9....1306 fps/682 ft lbs
Regards to whether .38 Special is better, it certainly is easier to shoot and I carry a 17 ounce snubby a lot with +P loads, but I do NOT get over about 275 ft lbs from it using 158+Ps. The .357 has better ballistics, especially with the heavier bullet, if you can shoot it well. Muzzle blast is still pretty fierce. 9x19 seems to be the best answer to ME for a gun this size, but YMMV. It's a far more efficient round, though, in this caliber owing to the pressure limits and the fast powders that work best in its case, and it has less recoil and muzzle flash/bang than the hot magnum loads in short barrels.
125 grain JHP/18.0 grains 2400......1102 fps/337 ft lbs
140 grain JHP/17.0 grains 2400......1332 fps/551 ft lbs
180 grain SWC/13.8 grains AA#9....1306 fps/682 ft lbs
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harrygunner
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Good information
Has anyone chronographed Buffalo Bore's 158gr .357 Mag JHC from a 2" snubby? I had to use linear extrapolation since there's little data on 2" guns.
Has anyone chronographed Buffalo Bore's 158gr .357 Mag JHC from a 2" snubby? I had to use linear extrapolation since there's little data on 2" guns.
MCgunner
Member
I can't afford BB. I can buy a lifetime supply of brass for what a hundred rounds of that stuff costs. I handload, therefore I am....
Anyway, I would think that for 158 grain stuff, extrapolating might be pretty close. For 125 grain stuff, it's probably not going to be a linear relationship because you are losing too much of the pressure peak in the shorter barrels, which is what I believe is the cause of the 125 grain load's poor performance in my tests. But, for the 158s, I don't think you'd be far off by extrapolation.
Anyway, I would think that for 158 grain stuff, extrapolating might be pretty close. For 125 grain stuff, it's probably not going to be a linear relationship because you are losing too much of the pressure peak in the shorter barrels, which is what I believe is the cause of the 125 grain load's poor performance in my tests. But, for the 158s, I don't think you'd be far off by extrapolation.
ThomasT
Member
At 1250fps then yes they may fragment. I haven't shot them that fast. The whole purpose of the soft lead hollow point was to get good expansion from the 38 special loads around 850fps at least thats thats what I got from Ed Lovetts book "the snubby revolver". I do like to push them a little faster as long as they don't lead the bore. Thats where the rooster jacket comes in. Gotta love that stuff.
My load at 930fps is still controlable from my taurus steel framed 85. I did have some hot blue dot loads from the speer #10 that has since been removed for the 158gr jacketed bullets in 357 and shot some of those through a friends 2" sp101 and those suckers were brutal. I pulled the loads when I got home and decided you can pass the point of what needs to be shot in a gun that small. They killed on one end and maimed on the other.
I think I will stick with the 158gr LHP. In the water bottle test I have done I have found no fragments and I haven't stopped any bullets either. Using 2 liter bottles they will go through 3-4 bottles and then exit the side. The exit hole looks like they expand to a large bullet I just don't know how big.
I did try laying the bottles on end and shooting that way. When I fired I was hit with a huge spray of water that soaked me and the gun. The jet of water came straight back and over the top of the gun and hit me on the forehead so hard it felt like someone slapped me. I had a red circle between my eyes the rest of the day. My buddy thought it was friggen' funny. I did not. I guess 6' away wasn't far enough.
Haycreek
Member
357 performance out of a 2 inch barrel
Unles you just like a lot of muzzel flash, noise and recoil. go with the 38 plus P
Unles you just like a lot of muzzel flash, noise and recoil. go with the 38 plus P
1911tuner.... I think Buffalo Bore loads a 158 grain LSWCHP at a +p pressure (.38 special) that should hit 1000fps from a 3" barrel.
Sorry if my first post sounds like an advertisement.. I don't work for Buffalo Bore.
I'm new to posting here, but have read dozens of great articles from this awesome site, many thanks.
Brad
edit: sorry, didn't realize Buffalo Bore was already mentioned.... and yep, it is super expensive.
Sorry if my first post sounds like an advertisement.. I don't work for Buffalo Bore.
I'm new to posting here, but have read dozens of great articles from this awesome site, many thanks.
Brad
edit: sorry, didn't realize Buffalo Bore was already mentioned.... and yep, it is super expensive.
Owen Sparks
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I don't like the excessive muzzle flash these short barrels produce. Most gun fights happen in low light conditions and that bright ball of fire can temporarily destroy your night vision. Ever have someone take your picture with a camera equipped with a flash in dim light? Notice how you can hardly see anything right afterward? What if you were trying to find your front sight somewhere in that big white spot that does not go away until your pupil open back up and your retena readjusts?
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Yep RatShooter. Remington's bullet seems to be more suited for .38 Special velocities, while Winchester's and Speer's require a bit more in order to open up. Testing indicates that the optimum range is 1000-1050 fps.
Deaf Smith
Member
No but....
I've chronoed the 158gr LSWHP BB ammo (.38 version) from a 2 inch S&W 64 and it does get 1000 fps. And from a Ruger 2 3/4 Speed Six it gets 1100 fps.
Now the 158 gr Gold Dot .357 magnum load BB makes says 1300 from a 3 inch bbl. (and my GP100 has a 3 incher!) One day I'll have to get some of those and chrono them since I do have a chronograph.
Deaf
Buffalo Bore is noted for this speed tweaking + particular bullet designs for particular calibers. I use a Colt Detective 38 Spl . Buffalo Bore's got 3 choices to allow the damage of a hollow point and yet only one is HP (38 Spl speeds are on the slow side for HP expansion). I use two, non HP: one is soft lead that's hollow (not HP) and tests show to be wicked in the way it mushrooms on hitting. The other is a hardened wadcutter, like getting hit with a small manhole cover at speeds of about 870 fps from 2" barrel. They both have penetration that's enviable: 14" and 16". All as well as their .357 have low flash as well.
How they tweak speed I don't know but they do.
They are stout when shot but manageable.
How they tweak speed I don't know but they do.
They are stout when shot but manageable.
Bullet weight for bullet weight, a .357 Magnum never gives up its ballistic edge over .38. Keep in mind that the .38 loses velocity with shorter barrels, too.
The point at which is is not "worth it" to carry magnums is determined by the human factors of tolerance for recoil and muzzle blast. Magnum snubs are wild beasties, but I know that an adversary is getting that sound and fury worse than I am, and will also have to deal with potential hydraulic leakage and other physical symptoms. I am ready for the blast, and flash is mitigated by premium defensive loads that have flash retardant in the powder.
To be clear, if I am going to hunt for bad guys in the dark, on purpose, I will select weapons other than magnum snubbies.
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MCgunner
Member
Yes, it makes a difference if you can shoot it well. If you can't handle the recoil or flash, well, the .38 never broke. I shoot a medium frame gun very well, pretty well with a Hogue gripped SP101, but I really don't see the .357 as a pocket revolver in light snubbies.
"Yes, it makes a difference if you can shoot it well. If you can't handle the recoil or flash, well, the .38 never broke. I shoot a medium frame gun very well, pretty well with a Hogue gripped SP101, but I really don't see the .357 as a pocket revolver in light snubbies."
well they are out and i guess some are profficient with them. if you distinguish a light snubbie as less that 23 ounces or so. i think that is the weight of most all-steel 357 snubs that i have seen online....if they are true.
what i was mainly trying to find out is is the claim of 1200+ or so fps from a 2" barrel doable with some of the current shelf brands of 357 mag.
well they are out and i guess some are profficient with them. if you distinguish a light snubbie as less that 23 ounces or so. i think that is the weight of most all-steel 357 snubs that i have seen online....if they are true.
what i was mainly trying to find out is is the claim of 1200+ or so fps from a 2" barrel doable with some of the current shelf brands of 357 mag.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Quote:
>>does +/- 300 to 400 fps mean much in the real world??<<
In addition to the points that MCgunner made, the answer is...it depends.
Increased velocity serves mainly to flatten trajectory and increase penetration with a given bullet. It's always been my stance that it you need more killing/stopping power...what you need is more bullet rather than more speed.
The .357 Magnum's original niche was as an outdoorsman's revolver...not a duty gun. It was housed in a heavy-framed revolver and was loaded to some truly frightening pressures and velocities. Its intent was for close range defense against large animals if the situation warranted...or for killing medium-sized game animals at moderate distances.
In a K-frame revolver equipped with the standard "Magna" stocks...it borders on uncontrollable.
>>does +/- 300 to 400 fps mean much in the real world??<<
In addition to the points that MCgunner made, the answer is...it depends.
Increased velocity serves mainly to flatten trajectory and increase penetration with a given bullet. It's always been my stance that it you need more killing/stopping power...what you need is more bullet rather than more speed.
The .357 Magnum's original niche was as an outdoorsman's revolver...not a duty gun. It was housed in a heavy-framed revolver and was loaded to some truly frightening pressures and velocities. Its intent was for close range defense against large animals if the situation warranted...or for killing medium-sized game animals at moderate distances.
In a K-frame revolver equipped with the standard "Magna" stocks...it borders on uncontrollable.
"what i was mainly trying to find out is is the claim of 1200+ or so fps from a 2" barrel doable with some of the current shelf brands of 357 mag."
IS THIS DOABLE???
>>does +/- 300 to 400 fps mean much in the real world??<<
In addition to the points that MCgunner made, the answer is...it depends.
"Increased velocity serves mainly to flatten trajectory and increase penetration with a given bullet."
then it means someting in the real world if 2" 357 snubs exist.
"It's always been my stance that it you need more killing/stopping power...what you need is more bullet rather than more speed. "
that doesn make much sense to me. i would a think a speedy bullet is what one needs.
"The .357 Magnum's original niche was as an outdoorsman's revolver...not a duty gun."
thats swell...but its original niche may have been better suited to begin with as a duty gun. if duty is shooting throuh car doors or sheet rock.
"In a K-frame revolver equipped with the standard "Magna" stocks...it borders on uncontrollable."
well...i see video of people shooting what they claim are 357 snubs...i guess they contiunue to carry them. dont know if a so -called magna shock is different from most shelf brand 357s or not.
IS THIS DOABLE???
>>does +/- 300 to 400 fps mean much in the real world??<<
In addition to the points that MCgunner made, the answer is...it depends.
"Increased velocity serves mainly to flatten trajectory and increase penetration with a given bullet."
then it means someting in the real world if 2" 357 snubs exist.
"It's always been my stance that it you need more killing/stopping power...what you need is more bullet rather than more speed. "
that doesn make much sense to me. i would a think a speedy bullet is what one needs.
"The .357 Magnum's original niche was as an outdoorsman's revolver...not a duty gun."
thats swell...but its original niche may have been better suited to begin with as a duty gun. if duty is shooting throuh car doors or sheet rock.
"In a K-frame revolver equipped with the standard "Magna" stocks...it borders on uncontrollable."
well...i see video of people shooting what they claim are 357 snubs...i guess they contiunue to carry them. dont know if a so -called magna shock is different from most shelf brand 357s or not.
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