.357 vs ar-15 for general hunting and shooting.

[22-rimfire]

You need to prioritize your purchases. Of the ones you mentioned, I'd go with the AR first if you're stuck on the AR. But I prefer to use a more traditional rifle hunting except for varmints like coyotes. So, I would personally look at a 243 win rifle first. Then go with a 41 mag or larger revolver for hunting. For the average shooter, 357 in a revolver is barely big enough for deer sized game, but works at close range.

The 357 in a carbine would be a lot of fun. Certainly capable to 100 yds on deer sized game with good shot placement, but a basic 30-30 would be more capable. I view the 357 carbines as mostly fun guns and perhaps "ranch guns". Just something to carry around for whatever.

10mm for hunting if you go the semi-auto pistol route.

 

[JSH1]

A H&R single shot is another rifle option if you decide to go with .357. You can purchase a H&R Handi-rifle in .357 or H&R will fit a .357 barrel to any rifle or shotgun made after 1987. The barrel with shipping runs about $175 through their barrel accessory program. Pick up a H&R shotgun from a pawn shop for $100, add the .357 barrel and you have a shotgun / rifle combo for less than $300.

 

[rskent]

Remember, it was designed to produce a larger proportion of non-fatal wounds in combat.

Denton: You might want to check your facts.

 

[Blackrock]

Sheesh, what a buncha dummies.

 

[HexHead]

If you want one rifle that can do it all, get a .30-06.

 

[dprice3844444]

get the colt le901,you can have 308 and 223 in the same rifle,model 686 smith or model 65 4 inch ,and an 870 with interchangeable bbls

 

[19-3Ben]

The 223 is a very nice match for coyotes. Remember, it was designed to produce a larger proportion of non-fatal wounds in combat.

Denton: You might want to check your facts.

Thanks rskent. As soon as I saw Denton's comment, I went to see if someone else had mentioned it first. Why oh why won't this silly myth die?

 

[dogmush]

Just because no one has mentioned it:

AR uppers can be built in .357mag..............

 

[22-rimfire]

get the colt le901,you can have 308 and 223 in the same rifle....

Good point. I was thinking of a more flexible caliber that would work for both deer and varmints well and with a bit more authority than the .223/5.56, but not so much power that you wouldn't want to use it for varmints. I believe you can get uppers in .243 too.

 

[Caliper_Mi]

AR uppers can be built in .357mag..............

Got a link to one for sale?

Seriously, that sounds fun but I couldn't find one in a quick web search.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Of the three guns mentioned in opening post:
.45 pistol. I have carried mine but the most use have gotten from it is particpating in the local military pistol matches.
.357 revolver. The most versatile handgun I own. Used for target, carried it on the mountain in case of defense against large predators, and legal for hunting in my home state.
AR-15. I have shot my son's M4gery. Overall probably the most versatile of the three for home defense or field use. The only reason I don't own one is I have an M1 carbine and a AK and don't want to complicate my ammo supply logistics (besides I kinda gravitate toward the idea of the Rem 6.8mm SPC).

Remember, it was designed to produce a larger proportion of non-fatal wounds in combat.

As I remember, the .223 AR-15 was adopted by the USAF to replace its aging M1 Carbines for airbase security because it was an effective anti-personnel round that would not endanger multi-million dollar aircraft like the 7.62 M14 could. (The whole history of adoption of the M16is very complicated.)

I have helped butcher two deer shot with 5.56 AR15 civilian rifles. Both were one shot kills. Strange performance if 5.56 was designed for non-fatal wounds. I am not surprised to learn that 5.6mm bolt action rifles firing 60gr bullets at 3,000 fps were designed and sold in Europe for hunting the equivalent of our eastern whitetail deer. The resistence of states to allow .223 for deer, I believe, is because typical civilian .223 ammo is 45gr softnose designed to blow up ground hogs, coyotes and other medium size varmints.

 

[Manny]

An AR is the ultimate build it yourself, maintain and repair it yourself rifle outside of possibly a 10/22 that is limited by it's chambering. With just a handfull of tools, some spare parts and some easily obtained knowledge you can be your own armorer and keep an AR running virtually forever. It is modular and all componants are highly standardized. Parts are widely available and completely interchangable between different rifles with no fidely gunsmith custom fitting needed. The .223/5.56 may not be the ultimate deer hunting round, but it has certainly been proven effective and capable of the job when used with good ammunition, though 250 yards is further than I would attempt to use it on deer. With coyotes you could add another 100 yards or so and still be in effective range.

As for your other two choices, a .357 carbine/rifle would be a very nice rifle and last quite well, especially when used with cast bullets. However it will be far less capable on deer & coyotes just due to the lower energy of the cartridge and will have nowhere near the range of an AR. A 1911 while an american classic and fine weapon is generally not on anyones list of preferred deer hunting cartridges, and would have limited range on coyotes as well. Also both the above would likely require the services of a knowledgable gunsmith should any problems develop.

I'd recommend a Glock in your preferred caliber if you want a lifetime handgun that can be easily owner maintained with very few tools and widely available parts. Do a brief internet search and stories abound with Glocks that have extremely high round counts with no need for gunsmith services, just some spring changes and possibly a few other parts that any owner can do themselves.

An AR, Glock and also a 10/22 are in my gunsafe for the reasons described above. All are durable, highly effective weapons that are easily owner maintained, repaired and even customized if desired. All great lifetime weapons IMHO.

 

[jmr40]

There isn't an animal a 357 rifle will cleanly kill that a 223 won't cleanly kill. Both are underpowered for game larger than deer, but both are just fine for any deer at reasonable ranges. Any way you look at it, a 223 is going to be more accurate, be cheaper to shoot, and probably cheaper to buy.

The resistence of states to allow .223 for deer, I believe, is because typical civilian .223 ammo is 45gr softnose designed to blow up ground hogs, coyotes and other medium size varmints.

A lot of truth, but most laws limiting .22 centerfires were enacted long before 223 existed and were really targeted toward 22 Hornet which is a much lower powered round that was strictly meant for varmits.

Use varmit bullets in any rifle, even a 30-06 and it will fail on large game. Use bullets designed for large game, and they cleanly take large game. Even in 223.

One other thing. Some people seem to think that MANY states do not allow 223. The opposite is true. There are a handful of states that do not allow any centerfire rifles, only shotgun or muzzle loader. If those states are excluded there are only 4-5 states where rifles are allowed, and 223 is not. There have been at least 2 states that have changed their laws within the last year and there is no reason why the others should not.

 

[kvtcomdo]

get the colt le901,you can have 308 and 223 in the same rifle,model 686 smith or model 65 4 inch ,and an 870 with interchangeable bbls

Out of OP's $ range.

 

[kvtcomdo]

Your parameters are difficult.

AR is very versatile and the idea of shooting out a good chrome lined barrel is remote.

I would insure you have the 1:7 twist if you really want to hunt deer or hogs as you want the heavier and more penetrating bullet choices.

It is versatile and could be used for plinking, hunting and SD. Its Lego ability to become something else is always a plus.

The Revolver/Carbine in 357 (with 38 capability) is always good and allows for a bevy of possibilities for you to include SD; Hunting and plinking but NOT @ the ranges you suggest. I would assert a <100 yards limit.

Reloading with a 357/38 is the easiest for a beginner which is another + and can decrease the cost of shooting substantially.

The 45ACP is primarily a SD weapon and will not serve your parameters but it is my favorite cartridge.

Don't know if this helps, but your desires for the gun/cartridge makes this more difficult.

The $800 limit could fit into the AR or 357 Revolver/Carbine combo.

 

[115grfmj]

I won't wade into the "this one is better than that one" debate, because it's completely subjective!! Even if you decide for the AR your next purchase should be a nice JM marked 1894Cin .357.........just something about 'em I can't quite explain. They just seem to a have soul, that not many others have. The longer you own them the better you like them

 

[Dr. Sandman]

The resistence of states to allow .223 for deer, I believe, is because typical civilian .223 ammo is 45gr softnose designed to blow up ground hogs, coyotes and other medium size varmints.

This is a great idea for a thread.

Some people seem to think that MANY states do not allow 223. The opposite is true. There are a handful of states that do not allow any centerfire rifles, only shotgun or muzzle loader. If those states are excluded there are only 4-5 states where rifles are allowed, and 223 is not.

Like Indiana, for instance.

I want three guns in the near future, a 1911, a ar-15, and a .357mag, However I am forced to think about what makes the most sense, eg, price to shoot, actual use, use if it becomes hard to find or get and so forth.

Assuming that you don't own any guns right now (Please, OP, opine if incorrect), of the choices you listed, I would go with a full sized .357 pistol because it's on my list below.

My advice for people that want to get into guns is to buy these three first:
1. .22LR rifle with tube magazine (like a Marlin model 60)
2. US made pump action 12g. shotgun (esp. Remington or Mossberg)
3. .357 Mag full sized pistol ( think 4"barrel)

This combination of three guns makes your arsenal extremely versatile. You can hunt almost any North American game, hunt birds, defend yourself, and CC. The ammo is abundant and relativly inexpensive (.22 is harder to come by these days, but even at reseller prices it's still much much cheaper than shooting .223). These firearms are as ubiquitous as they come (meaning most people that own guns have a .22, a 12g, and a .357 revovler. In addition, I understand that it is relativly easy to reload .357, and I know it is easy to reload 12g shells because I did it in college. In a pinch, these 2 type of ammo would probably be around if you really needed some. If you get a 12g that comes with both a smooth and rifled barrel, you should easily be able to make 100 yard shots. Being good at 250 yard shots will take lots of practice and may be beyond this equipment list.

 

[thriller]

What the heck is half life 2 ? A movie or video game or something?

 

[mboylan]

There isn't an animal a 357 rifle will cleanly kill that a 223 won't cleanly kill. Both are underpowered for game larger than deer, but both are just fine for any deer at reasonable ranges. Any way you look at it, a 223 is going to be more accurate, be cheaper to shoot, and probably cheaper to buy.



A lot of truth, but most laws limiting .22 centerfires were enacted long before 223 existed and were really targeted toward 22 Hornet which is a much lower powered round that was strictly meant for varmits.

Use varmit bullets in any rifle, even a 30-06 and it will fail on large game. Use bullets designed for large game, and they cleanly take large game. Even in 223.

One other thing. Some people seem to think that MANY states do not allow 223. The opposite is true. There are a handful of states that do not allow any centerfire rifles, only shotgun or muzzle loader. If those states are excluded there are only 4-5 states where rifles are allowed, and 223 is not. There have been at least 2 states that have changed their laws within the last year and there is no reason why the others should not.

But you are relying on hunters to choose expensive premium controlled expansion bullets when buying ammo to hunt with their ARs and take good shots at reasonable distance. Most .223 hunting ammo is loaded with varmint bullets that fragment heavily on impact and wound larger game.

For the average hunter, this cartridge should be illegal on large game.

 

[sixgunner455]

But you are relying on hunters to choose expensive premium controlled expansion bullets when buying ammo to hunt with their ARs and take good shots at reasonable distance. Most .223 hunting ammo is loaded with varmint bullets that fragment heavily on impact and wound larger game.

For the average hunter, this cartridge should be illegal on large game.

BS. The .223 is putting down deer all over the country, and has been for years. Is it perfect? No. Is it gonna keep right on doing that? You bet. Is it a good choice for anything larger? Probably not.

OP, if you really want to use the same rifle for defense and to hunt with, and you are stuck on the .357 vs. AR rifle, get the AR. I base that on the fact that you stated you might have shots out to 250 yards. The .357 won't get it done at that range. The AR can. It is up to you to get the right ammo for the application, no matter what rifle/caliber you are using.

Get a .357 revolver, when you can, and you will want for nothing in a defensive firearm.

 

[Warp]

But you are relying on hunters to choose expensive premium controlled expansion bullets when buying ammo to hunt with their ARs and take good shots at reasonable distance. Most .223 hunting ammo is loaded with varmint bullets that fragment heavily on impact and wound larger game.

For the average hunter, this cartridge should be illegal on large game.

No matter what is being used you are relying on hunters taking good shots at reasonable distances.

I don't buy that the answer is to some people misusing something is to have the government just go ban it all wholesale.

That's how you end up with gun laws like New York City and Chicago.

 

[thriller]

I have all the guns mentioned as options in the OP. If I had to keep only 1 for the uses you mentioned, Id keep a 357 lever action, 20" barrel. The 357 is a different animal in a rifle vs a revolver. Good HD gun, great plinker with 38's, and with the right cartridge, plenty for deer and hogs at short to medium ranges. Id forget about those 200 yard shots though. Ive been deer hunting for 30 years, and killed my share, and Id never take a 200 yard shot on a deer with a 357 or 223. 357 is going to drop several feet, 223 does not have alot of energy retained at that range. Just my .02

 

[kneesus]

You could always pick up a Ruger GP-100 and a Mosin Nagant for under $800 and still have money left over for 440 rounds of 7.62x54R

 

[115grfmj]

Just throwing this out there

Sight in at 3" high at 100yds

the round (158 gr jsp s&b) doesn't cross the line of sight until it crosses 171 yards.....i.e it's a dead on hold. It's only a little low at 200yds .Most people are surprised by how flat the .357 from a rifle can shoot, relatively speaking. Also Your not really getting down to handgun velocity until about 150 yards ( and most people will tell you the .357 from a HANDGUN is suitable for whitetail to at least fifty yards) , IIRC, from my own chrony work. Personally I wouldn't hestitate to take deer at that range(170yds)........as always though if you can't land your rounds in the right spot........ I personally get 2.25" groups (from a rest with aperature sights, s&b ammo) with my 1894c at 100yds, a scope might improve that a bit.

With the new pointed flex tip ammo it's shooting much flatter. With the Buffalo bore heavy stuff I wouldn't hesitate to use it on elk at shorter ranges (under 100 yds)

 

[Warp]

Sight in at 3" high at 100yds

the round (158 gr jsp s&b) doesn't cross the line of sight until it crosses 171 yards.....i.e it's a dead on hold. It's only a little low at 200yds .Most people are surprised by how flat the .357 from a rifle can shoot, relatively speaking. Also Your not really getting down to handgun velocity until about 150 yards ( and most people will tell you the .357 from a HANDGUN is suitable for whitetail to at least fifty yards) , IIRC, from my own chrony work. Personally I wouldn't hestitate to take deer at that range(170yds)........as always though if you can't land your rounds in the right spot........ I personally get 2.25" groups (from a rest with aperature sights, s&b ammo) with my 1894c at 100yds, a scope might improve that a bit.

With the new pointed flex tip ammo it's shooting much flatter. With the Buffalo bore heavy stuff I wouldn't hesitate to use it on elk at shorter ranges (under 100 yds)

If it is high at 100 yards, it crossed line of sight somewhere between the muzzle and 100 yards (near zero) and then fell back down to line of sight again (far zero) farther along (171 in this case, you say)

I have a .357 lever on my eventual-buy list for sure.