357 - what's possible

[dakotasin]

i've had this s&w 686 for 10 years or more, and only recently really got into revolver shooting. i worked up some hard-hitting loads for it, but it is falling short of my goals...

i clocked some buffalo bore ammo, which is about as hot as anything, and i could not reach the advertised velocity (1485) out of my 4" gun. i screwed together an outstanding handload that clocks 1410 f/s (hitting harder and more accurate than buffalo bore), but energy is just under 700 ft/lbs. my goal is to reach 725-750 ft/lbs - which i feel is necessary to make the gun a big game hunter.

in my chrony adventures, i have found 38 special to gain a little over 100 f/s going from a 2" barrel to a 4" barrel - but i don't have any other 357's to compare to for more data gathering for 357 mag loads.

i am convinced that i have maxed out the 4" barrel (my hottest load was a little over 1450 f/s, but at 50 yards accuracy wasn't much). i am looking for an accurate load that generates ~725 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle. so, i have 2 options to explore, 1 significantly cheaper than the other.

can i safely reach 725+ pounds of energy using 180 grain bullets? and if not, does anybody have any chrony data available to determine what i'll gain by going from a 4" barrel to a 6 or 6.5" barrel? (ie, can i reach the threshold by simply adding a couple inches of pipe)

and before the inevitable: i have enough chamberings in enough guns... in an effort to reduce the amount of ammo and components i have to track, i am not adding any more calibers to my accumulation. if i can't reach my goal w/ the 357, then i'll just continue to hunt the 480 - i am not interested in any more calibers, which eliminates the 44 and the mighty 41 - unfortunately - but its ridiculous to have more dies on my shelf than a well-stocked gun store, and i really do not want to add more dies and components. adding more guns is not a problem, however.

thanks for any help!

 

[Kevinch]

I'm not an expert in muzzle velocity or energy - but if you're pushing the limit on what can be obtained with a .357"MAG in a 4" barrel, you've also got to be close to the limit in a 6" barrel & I don't know how much barrel length over 6" benefits a .357MAG.

Instead of beating the gun - & yourself - why not just sell the 686 & all the dies & go to a bigger caliber that will easily reach your target?

If this is a non-answer, I'm sorry - please disregard & move on...

 

[pauli]

more barrel will certainly help - if a bigger smith doesn't do the trick, stick the rounds in a marlin

actually, might not be a bad idea to check your cylinder gap. if it's loose, you could be losing a lot of power there.

 

[caz223]

With a 686, your options are kinda limited.
If it was an older 'new model' ruger blackhawk with a 6 1/2" barrel you wouldn't have any problems hitting your energy goals or your target.
But you don't want to try other calibers?
Well, that's just un american.
If you don't have at least one .41 magnum and one 10mm you're missing out.
Incidentally, both of those would hit 750 easily in a big framed gun with a 5-6" tube.

 

[unspellable]

357 problem

Get a Dan Wesson 357 SuperMag or Dan Wesson 360. You will have to get the brass but you can use the same bullets and dies. The 360 will outperform the 357 Magnum and the 357 SuperMag will not only outperfrom those but has a small edge over the 357 Maximum.

 

[Nightcrawler]

I agree. If the 686 is older and you haven't used it much, get the cylinder gap checked. It's odd that you're getting lower than normal velocities. Buffalo Bore ammo should give you over 700 foot-pounds from the four inch tube.

I can understand not wanting another caliber. You've got the .480 Super Redhawk, but are looking for something a little lighter for hunting, right? I agree with the suggestion of a 6-6.5" .357 Magnum. 686, GP-100, or even Blackhawk. The Blackhawk is probably the strongest .357 Magnum on the market right now, and you can hotrod it to your hearts content.

Failing that? A Freedom Arms .353 Casull, though that's going to cost you.

 

[dakotasin]

nightcrawler- yes, you hit it. looking for something more portable for hunting. i like the 480 - great gun, but not a lot more convenient to haul around than a rifle. specifically: if i took the identical load as it is now, generating 1410 f/s in my 4" gun, and filled the chambers in a 6" gun, would i get a marked performance increase? in 38 special, i certainly did - but a 38 special is not a 357 mag...

caz- i've been on the hunt for a 41 mag for years. finally, after adding the 7 rum to my safe, the point of too much diversity hit, and the 41 mag has been ruled out. i have a helluva time tracking components, especially bullets now, that a totally new caliber will turn a hobby into work. the 10mm has not been ruled out because i have a pretty good collection of 10mm bullets for my 40's - just not sure i want another few 1000 pieces of brass. i have a 2 car garage, and i can barely get 1 car in it now. the rest is taken up by gun stuff. the lawnmower and kids' toys have their own shed in the backyard.

kevin- can't sell the dies and such... i still have 38 specials that need feeding. thanks, anyway!

going to a bigger caliber isn't a problem - i already have a 480 and rifles. i want to stick w/ the 357, if at all possible. i'm thinking a 6-6.5" barrel would do it.

 

[wanderinwalker]

dakotasin,
I do believe going to a 6-6.5" barrel and stuffing the chambers with you reloads should get you close to your 725-750 ft lb mark. IIRC hitting 1500-fps with a 6" .357 and 158gr bullets is doable. I don't think you'll make your energy goal with the 180s; if anything, they tend to be a drop in energy due to the reduced velocity levels.

Too bad you don't want another caliber, because stepping up to a .41/.44/.45 would get you to your goal with room to spare. Even downloaded my .44 Magnum out-muscles my father's 187gr .357 Magnum loads. And stepped on the gas, a 240gr slug at 1300+ fps from a 6" tube is quite within reach.

Or get a Marlin levergun. They're not much heavier than the Ruger SRH, only a little longer and tend to be easier to shoot accurately for most people. (tongue-in-cheek over) Plus it gives you 9 +1 rounds of .357.

Good luck with your search, and don't blow anything up!

 

[dakotasin]

appreciate the concern, but i haven't blown anything up... yet.

now, to find a 6" 586. i guess failing that, i'll have to look into a ruger...

 

[Catshooter]

dakotasin,

I think adding two inches to a .357 will add ~150 fps. You might get the same or more gain over a .38 due to the higher presure of the .357.

Going to a heavier bullet will generally reduce energy.

I think you can do it with a six or six and a halfer.

Good luck.


Cat

 

[PythonFan]

How about an 8" Colt Python?

 

[461]

I think you can hit your goal with the 6", better from the 6.5" Blackhawk and if you moved up to a lever gun there are loads giving 2000fps out of a 16" Winchester. The levergun makes the .357 a completely different round.

 

[timothy75]

I'd call it a day those numbers are very impressive and quite applicable for hunting. No point risking saftey.

 

[huntershooter]

What are you intending to hunt? The .357 is the bottom limit for (handgun) deer hunting. I'm assuming this is a 158 gr. bullet? The velocity you"ve obtained is/are probably the limit with your revolver. Let you in on a secret: It ain't about velocity. A heavy for cal. (180 gr. in .357), hardcast lead bullet @ 1200 fps+- is as good as it gets in .357. Hunting game with a handgun is about penetration. What bullet were you using in load developement? If you're uncertain in your guns ability to take game cleanly; get more gun.

 

[dakotasin]

appreciate the commentary, fellas.

catshooter- my experience w/ rifles shows that higher intensity cartridges change the most w/ barrel length changes. i'm discovering that handguns, especially revolvers w/ their cylinder gap, aren't necessarily the same as rifles (eg, rifles generally pick up energy w/ heavier bullets, and it seems that isn't necessarily true w/ handguns). so, it would seem that 6+" of barrel makes the most sense to maximize the 357's hunting potential.

pythonfan- a colt python would be great - if it were affordable. 8" is out - just too unwieldy.

461- carbines are out.

huntershooter- well... the gun's intended purpose isn't deer hunting. my hunting is either rifle or bow, or occasionally the scoped 480. all 3 of those things are not easily packed around. since i always have a gun, i thought i'd carry the 357 during the fall/winter for when a spur-of-the-moment decision is made to go deer hunting (eg, get done working early). since there's so little daylight at that time of year, by the time i go home, grab my gear, and get back out, there's very little time left to hunt, or its too late. or, sometimes there are opportunity targets while on the tractor or in the pick-up, like coyotes, fox, coons, or skunks (coons and skunks most frequently). so, the intended purpose of the gun is something that i can have around always, and be ready for all occasions - including deer-capability.

the bullet i used in my work-ups was an oregon trail laser cast 158 swc.

i'm not uncertain in the gun's ability, or mine - i'm asking to make sure i'm easily within the safety margin. i've killed enough deer under a variety of circumstances and calibers to have a pretty good understanding of what i want to see. handguns are different, though, since they don't generate the energy - so bullet shape (blunt noses) and penetration (construction/design) are playing the most effective part of the kill. what i want to be able to do, is if there arises an opportunity for a quick hunt, that i can grab the 686 and find a deer at 25 yards or less, shoot, and know the bullet will punch both sides of the deer every time, without fail - and that might include punching a shoulder or two.

so, if my self-imposed limit is 25 yards, why development at 50? i'm an accuracy freak for one. for two, i prefer to be as far away from skunks as possible when they are shot. and three, it is really hard to get close to a fox or coyote (and undesireable for skunks and badgers) so they must be taken from where i stand - generally don't have time to chase them all over the yard and field trying to stalk...

thanks for the commentary, fellas... appreciate it, and appreciate not wasting time chasing down dead ends!

 

[461]

A deer inside of 25yds with a .357 is a very doable scenario with proper shot placement.

 

[Sport45]

(my hottest load was a little over 1450 f/s, but at 50 yards accuracy wasn't much)

A miss is a miss. It doesn't matter how fast the bullet whizzed past the critter. My recommendation is to come back down the velocity scale until the load is accurate. At that point you are doing the best you can with the cartridge. With a hard cast bullet like that I don't think the deer will notice +/- 150fps.

 

[dakotasin]

yeah, my final load clocks 1410 f/s, sd of 13, and shoots well at 25 yards (at 50, i need a bit of practice...).

hopefully get a chance to hunt deer w/ this gun and load this fall. the more i shoot the gun/load, the more confident i am in not needing to bump to a 6+" barrel. likely scenario would be to hunt the same area i bowhunt in... i know the deer, habits, trails, and everything else in that area. shot would most likely be 10-15 yards, but i did have a buck a couple years ago that broke off the trail and forced me to arrow him at 23 yards... i figure this load at 25 yards will be appropriate.

 

[huntershooter]

FWIW; I've had great luck (accuracy & penetration) with Cast Performance 180 gr. gas check cast bullet @ 1180 fps. Definately a 50 yd. Whitetail/"pest" load. Using AA#9 or HS-7 I get 1.5" @ 25 yds. (once around the cylinder). I can run this bullet faster, but why bother? At best it's a 50 yd. Whitetail revolver.