WWB .357 158gr ammo unusually powerful

[wanderinwalker]

It was in Gun Tests. Take it with a grain of salt, then throw it out and move on with your day.

As for "weak", "watered down" and all of the other phrases commonly associated with modern ammo, or "budget" ammo (WWB), also take those with a grain of salt. As already mentioned, modern pressure testing equipment is more sensitive, and capable of showing more information, than copper crusher units did. If you look, you can find stories of those old, hotter than the hinges of Hades, .357 Magnum loadings causing sticky extraction and other pressure-related problems in some guns.

For some reason Winchester White Box gets a bad rep for being "underpowered". I'm not sure it's entirely deserved. I remember chronographing the 240gr .44 Magnum load at 1300-fps from a 6" S&W 629-1. They were a solid 100-fps faster than my reloads with 240gr Hornady XTPs. I've chronographed the standard WWB 115gr 9mm FMJ load that frequently gets called out for being "weak" at 1200-fps from a 4.5" Glock 17. That is NOT weakly loaded 9mm ammo, not when a 115gr Speer Gold Dot at 1300-fps has a +P+ rating. (Incidentally, I also learned the 127gr +P+ Winchester Ranger SXT law enforcement load really did run 1270-fps from the same Glock. Speaking of hot ammo...)

I did chronograph some Independence 158gr .357 Magnum JSP loads at over 1200-fps from my 4" S&W Model 19. And the green-and-white box Remington-UMC 125gr JSP .357 Magnum hit an honest 1450-fps from my 4" S&W 586. Both of those seemed plenty "hot" to me too.

 

[MaxP]

That number is meaningless without bullet weight and barrel length.

The only bullet weight available for the .44 Mag at that time was 240 grains - the standard. It was a 6 1/2-inch Model 29. It was a pretty high profile article as I recall. I guess you missed it.

 

[fxvr5]

The only bullet weight available for the .44 Mag at that time was 240 grains - the standard. It was a 6 1/2-inch Model 29. It was a pretty high profile article as I recall. I guess you missed it.

When was the ammo tested manufactured?

 

[MaxP]

1950s if I can recall. It was the article where he was recreating Elmer Keith’s 600 yard deer kill (where he finished a deer his hunting partner wounded). To be a credible apples to apples test he used period correct ammo and revolvers. Probably my favorite Brian Pearce piece. I will look up when it was published.

 

[CraigC]

It should be obvious that most factory "magnum" ammo is watered down and I'm not talking about just the CUP to PSI transition.

 

[fxvr5]

It should be obvious that most factory "magnum" ammo is watered down and I'm not talking about just the CUP to PSI transition.

Obvious how and based on what information?

 

[CraigC]

Knowledge that should already exist in the brain of any experienced shooter/handloader. If it's a standard weight bullet and it's not getting beyond 1200fps, it's not running at full pressure.

The .44Spl Keith load was tested at 1200fps and 26,000psi. If the same weight bullet is doing the same velocity in a longer case, what do you think the pressure is? It sure as hell ain't 36,000psi. A lot of factory .44Mag loads are in this range.

If the Hornady 158gr .357 load is only 1250fps but the 200gr Grizzly is 1300fps, what do you think that means? There are endless examples of where factory loads are falling well short of SAAMI limits.

 

[BobWright]

I tend to ignore ballistics as printed on cartridge boxes or even most gun magazines.

I take this attitude: The .45 Colt cartridge has been proven to be a killer, on man and game. This load has a 250~255 grain bullet at around 900 f.p.s. So I conclude any load combination that can deliver that kind of performance at the target should be sufficient. This obviously means the bullet has to be launched at some greater velocity from the muzzle. So the main criteria, to me, is how accurately that bullet can be placed at the point where it will do the most good, or harm, actually. In my experience, a 240 gr. .44 caliber leaving the muzzle at around 1200 f.p.s. has been perfectly adequate.

This is not to say all my handloads have been that tame!

Bob Wright

 

[peacebutready]

The .44Spl Keith load was tested at 1200fps and 26,000psi. If the same weight bullet is doing the same velocity in a longer case, what do you think the pressure is? It sure as hell ain't 36,000psi. A lot of factory .44Mag loads are in this range.

If the Hornady 158gr .357 load is only 1250fps but the 200gr Grizzly is 1300fps, what do you think that means? There are endless examples of where factory loads are falling well short of SAAMI limits.

I suppose .44 mag loads being well short of SAAMI limits makes them viable for defense against bad guys.

That Grizzly load is for wildlife defense, if I'm not mistaken. 158gr loads going substantially faster then 1250 fps would make the recoil/blast more than what most can handle, especially in those lightweight revolvers.

 

[peacebutready]

I've chronographed the standard WWB 115gr 9mm FMJ load that frequently gets called out for being "weak" at 1200-fps from a 4.5" Glock 17. That is NOT weakly loaded 9mm ammo, not when a 115gr Speer Gold Dot at 1300-fps has a +P+ rating. (Incidentally, I also learned the 127gr +P+ Winchester Ranger SXT law enforcement load really did run 1270-fps from the same Glock. Speaking of hot ammo...)

My experience with WWB 115gr 9mm has shown it to be inconsistent. I would only buy their NATO for fmj. I don't know about those specific +P+ loads listed above, but that kind of velocity can make the projectile open up too soon and not penetrate sufficiently. With standard pressure 9mm HiShok ammo, it didn't expand at all when shot into gel. The same bullet loaded to +P+ levels penetrated insufficiently according to the video I saw.

 

[Salmoneye]

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't S&W lobby SAAMI somewhere in the early 90's to lower the pressure limits on .357 and .44 magnums?

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/when-did-357-saami-pressure-change.691185/

 

[MaxP]

1950s if I can recall. It was the article where he was recreating Elmer Keith’s 600 yard deer kill (where he finished a deer his hunting partner wounded). To be a credible apples to apples test he used period correct ammo and revolvers. Probably my favorite Brian Pearce piece. I will look up when it was published.

The article appeared in the October 2009 issue of Handloader magazine. He used two pre-Model 29 Smith & Wesson .44 Magnums with 6 1/2-inch barrels, and the ammo was Remington 240 grain semi-jacketed hollow-point ammunition, circa 1957. It averaged 1,451 fps out of the two revolvers.

 

[CraigC]

That was a good one.

 

[fxvr5]

FYI, previous published ballistics:

1956 Remington - DuPont 44 Magnum, 240 grain lead, gas checked, 1570 fps, 6 1/2" barrel
1963 Remington - DuPont 44 Magnum, 240 grain lead, gas checked, 1470 fps, 6 1/2" barrel

1960 Winchester, 44 Magnum, 240 Lubaloy, 1470 fps, 6 1/2" barrel

You gents are right. Things have changed since the old days.

I recall shooting the Winchester Lubaloy 357 Magnum loads in the '70s. They leaded up my Ruger Blackhawk terribly.