.357mag for deer?

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bpl

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I picked up a Winchester Model 94AE in .357mag with a 16 inch barrel. What would be the effective range for deer with this carbine? 50-60 yards? What would be a good load in .357mag for deer?

These loads from Buffalo Bore look impressive:

18.5 inch Marlin 1894

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 2153 fps---- Can you believe this?!!!
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 2298 fps---- Or this?!!!

They say that load c., the 158gr Speer Uni Core exceeds 30-30 energies!

What say y'all?

BPL
 
The 357 mag from a rifle has about the same energy at 100 yards as a 6" barreled revolver has at the muzzle.

A 357 in a handgun is considered a 50-75 yard deer round. In theory the rifle would be effective to about 150 yards. I think I would consider a 100-125 yard range as the max.

The sights are more of a limiter than the round.

Congrats on your find. I bet you end up really liking that rifle. My Marlin 357 is my favorite rifle.
 
I have a 44 mag with 20 inch octagon barrel.
The more i shoot that thing, the more I think i should have gotten the .357.
Maybe Christmas:)
 
A 357 in a handgun is considered a 50-75 yard deer round. In theory the rifle would be effective to about 150 yards. I think I would consider a 100-125 yard range as the max.
Click to expand...

I agree.....I have taken deer with my Model 19 and Aimpoint MKlll at 60yards....my Rossi 357 lever gun was good to 125 yds
 
They say that load c., the 158gr Speer Uni Core exceeds 30-30 energies
Click to expand...

From a muzzle energy standpoint, that round comes up about 15% less energy than your "standard" 30-30 round ((150gr @ 2390))
 
I would go with A, B or C not D. Use at least a 158 grain bullet. Any of the three should do the trick to at least 125 yds.
 
Not 125 Grains.

Yep, I'd stay away from the lighter bullets - I'd want 158 grains as a starting point, and think with the more modern bullets you'd actually have a good chance at expansion at 100 yards. Heavy SWC would be my second choice to an expanding bullet, but the 125 grain, to me, is something for BGs and varmints, (haha, that's redundant, isn't it :D).
 
Thanks all!

Couple of follow up questions.

1. Can I shoot .38 specials out of my Winchester 94AE Carbine?

2. What range should I sight it in for? 100 yards? Less? What would be the 50 yard point of impact to get it sighted in at 100 yards, 1.5 or 2 inchs high? (I can shoot 50 yards safely in the backyard)

As an aside, I'm thinking of taking my GF's son deer hunting with it. He is 10 yrs old, but quite small for his age. I don't think he's big enough to shoot my .243 or 30-30 yet.

Thanks!

BPL
 
An answer or two

1. Can I shoot .38 specials out of my Winchester 94AE Carbine?

2. What range should I sight it in for? 100 yards? Less? What would be the 50 yard point of impact to get it sighted in at 100 yards, 1.5 or 2 inchs high? (I can shoot 50 yards safely in the backyard)
Click to expand...

Answer 1 - Absolutely. Shoot 'em all day long and have fun. Your lever action won't likely feed full wadcutter ammo though. Mine doesn't. I don't know if the Winchester's mag will give you "one more" in the magazine with 38, since the 38 is about a tenth of an inch shorter, but you'll find shooting 38 ammo will be very easy on your budget and fine for small animals and plinking.

2 - That depends on where you figure you will actually be engaging targets. I have my 357 Puma (a '92 copy) sighted two inches high at 50 yards, but with lots of ammo, it'll drop more than 2 inches between the 50 yards and 100. That's all a matter of which load you're using, though. If I were deer hunting with it and figured for 100 yards, I'd start by zeroing a couple inches high at 50 yards then checking it by actually shooting targets at 100. Some of us have ballistic software that can calculate the actual drop, but we'd need actual data to do that - or for a lot of factory loads, you can find the trajectory tables online.

Oh by the way - your GF's son will probably really appreciate it if you start him with .38 ammo like lead 158's or something even lighter if you can find Cowboy Action ammo. My Puma, with it's hard buttplate, is a bit unpleasant for my 12-year old to shoot with full power .357 hunting ammo. Better to get him comfy with it at the range first, then see the difference between plinking and hunting ammo, than to make it unpleasant for him and get him flinching. Good of you to take him, he may like you a lot more for it.
 
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Oh by the way - your GF's son will probably really appreciate it if you start him with .38 ammo
Click to expand...

I would definitely start him out with .38 ammo!!

I'm thinking about using this load (for actual hunting):

c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 2153 fps

2 inches high at 50 yards or would I need less elevation with this load? Do you think the advertised ballistics are legit? I'd be using the 16" barrel, not the 18.5 inch buffalo bore tested the load with.
 
I'd go with the 180 hardcast

That load will give you max penetration from any angle and limit tissue destruction.
 
Trajectory

The 158 grain bullet at 2150 FPS (oooh, hot, hot!) won't be dropping the six inches I'd expect at a hundred yards. I don't have my ballistic calculator with me (at work) but if you're zeroed two inches high at fifty, you'd probably get close to four inches drop at 100, maybe less, so you'd be a couple inches low. I'll have to fire up a ballistics program later to get more precise.

2150 FPS is just smoking for a .357/158. Gads. Make sure YOU try shooting this one first before you hand it over to a 10-year old. That carbine's light and the load is impressive. Want to try Junior with factory Speer (or similar) 158-grain hollow points or something a bit more tame first? I doubt my boy would like the Buffalo Bore ammo, worthy as it is for you or me.

The usual "ladder type" elevation on lever actions make it difficult to get much more precise, but that should get you in the right direction. If you're hunting in woods so the 100 yard shot will never happen, feel free to zero at fifty.

The published ballistics are pretty close - they're hard to duplicate precisely even between two rifles with same barrel length. For all practical purposes, though, since this isn't a match rifle or sniper rifle deal, and a ten year old shooter, my bet is you'll have more flinch and "buck fever" to deal with than raw ballistics. Should be fun, though, and a great "male bonding" experience.
 
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Should be fine for normal woods ranges. I'd use A or C. Probably easier to find the 180 grain hard cast.

I would also sight it in at 50 yds a little high; 1 or 2". Should be pretty good out to 100 yds. I would shoot a little at that range to see where it hits however.
 
Thanks all!

My Winchester 94 30-30 weighs 6lbs 4oz, the 357 carbine an even 6lbs. Do you think that Buffalo Bore load C (158gr speer unicore@2150fps) might recoil pretty close to my 30-30 with 150gr loads? I kinda like that load since I think it would double real well as a "home defense carbine" load and a "truck gun" load. But if it kicks too much, he probably will be intimidated by it. He was a little intimidated by my AR-15 in 5.56/.223 when I let him shoot a few rounds. The AR doesn't really recoil much, but I think maybe the significantly increased noise over his youth .22lr might be a large part of the problem. I would definitely start with .38 special and work have him work his way up! He needs to be able to demonstrate that he can hit a deer vital sized target consistenly at 50yards or so though, so if the recoil is likely to be too much, I'll need to reconsider my plan. I'd like to take him hunting, not wounding!!

BPL
 
I guess what I need is a .357 load that will reliably and cleanly take deer at, say 50-60yards, but does not recoil too much for a small 10year old boy to handle.

Thanks!

BPL
 
Speer 158 Gr Loads

I had a look at the Speer 158 grain hunting loads listed on their website. I think what they sell may be a good choice for the younger man. The Buffalo Bore stuff is impressive, but it may be overkill for a young lad just learning. I'd get the Speer (or simlar manufacturer;s standard ammo and see how that works. Maybe junior will surprise you with a need for more firepower like the Buffalo Bore - but I don't think many kids could handle it without developing a flinch.
 
Right Track

Well, I think you're on the right track. I've trained new shooters and young hunters... and working them up is the way to go, for sure.

Starting with 38 and seeing how that goes makes lots of sense. There's plenty of .357 ammo short of the Buffalo Bore stuff that you can try.

My whole point was that it's a big jump, and to err on the side of caution, I'd want to try at least one load in .357 somewherere between the .38 and Buffalo Bore - at the range - just to see how things are going. Hey, if the lad gets happy over the Speer or Hornady (whatever) .357 loads, go for it.

You're right on about going hunting, not wounding. Best of luck - both hunting and doing right by the young fellow. :D
 
Well, it appears that Speer's 158gr load is the "personal protection" Gold Dot with the thinner jacket, not the "hunting" Gold Dot Unicore with the thicker jacket. Would the 158gr load work well or would it fragment and not penetrate well at the higher carbine barrel velocity? The only "hunting" load they offer is a 170gr Gold Dot Soft Point at MV 1180fps. Maybe this would be a better bet? Or would the recoil be a lot more with the heavier bullet? The similar Buffalo Bore 170gr load runs at MV 1411fps. Both MV figures are from 4" barrels.

BPL
 
Hi BPL...

Here is a good online ballistics calculator for you....

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics/ballistics_calculator.php


... and an online recoil calculator at .....

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp


"I guess what I need is a .357 load that will reliably and cleanly take deer at, say 50-60yards, but does not recoil too much for a small 10year old boy to handle."

I'll offer this line of thinking...

Loads for your young friend may well need to be with one of the assorted 125gr. JSP (or cast lead) bullets.

At the 50-60yd. max. that you should enforce, even a moderate-paced 125-grainer will do the job if the lad can place it right.

As you have noted when he shot your other centerfires - he will likely be bothered a lot more by the noise than by any real recoil. Almost all young/new shooters are. Unfortunately the 16" barrel on your AE is going to contribute negatively to that. So...

By dropping the bullet weight and not trying to squeeze all possible velocity from the load you will significantly reduce muzzle blast as well as recoil. And after all - you're talking shots at only 50-60 yds. so there is no need for a max-velocity load and at those distances a 125-grainer will be ample for deer - if the shot is placed well. nd it sounds as if you intend to see to it that there are no shots that aren't placed well.

Hopefully you'll be able to have headphones on him while he's practicing - they are great "anti-flinch protection". You might also have him practice wearing hunting cloths that offer him a bit more pad at the shoulder than street clothes do.

Good Luck !
:cool:
 
you should make sure that it is legal to use a 357 rifle in the first place to hunt deer with the game department. In Nebraska a rifle caliber has to have 900 ft lbs of energy at 100 yards to be legal. I don't believe there is any 357 load made that will do that out of a rifle at 100 yards. in a handgun the 357 would have to have 400 ft lbs of energy at 50 yards and while there are 357 loads that will meet that it isn't by much
 
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