37 vs 870

[buckshott]

I have 37's and 870's. I like them both. After firing an 870, when you pump the slide, you must release the trigger before firing again. Not so with the 37. If you forget to release the trigger, it will fire again when you pump the slide. Why did Ithaca make it this way?

 

[MCgunner]

Probably just an oversight in design? Would be rather rude if you forgot to let off the trigger. I know a friend that loves 'em for that reason. Of course, he has a full auto M11 with a silencer. Tacticool gone wild.

I believe the Winchester 97 does the same thing.

Flaws or now, I much prefer the M37 as a pump, very smooth action, bottom ejection, tang (old ones) safety, no loading gate to get in the way of magazine loading. IMHO, the Remington is over rated, and I've owned one in the past. It's a good gun, of course, just has a few design features I don't like. One reason I like the tang safety is I shoot left handed and it's just more natural to me anyway.

 

[dfariswheel]

Many, if not most earlier pump shotguns had no disconnecter.
Later model Ithaca 37's made in the 1980's did have a disconnecter.

The model 37 was designed by John Browning in the 1900's.
The Remington 870 was designed in 1950 when all new designs included a disconnecter.
By that time it was recognized that a shotgun that could fire when the action was closed was unsafe.

 

[One of Many]

The model 37 was designed by John Browning in the 1900's.
The Remington 870 was designed in 1950 when all new designs included a disconnecter. By that time it was recognized that a shotgun that could fire when the action was closed was unsafe.

The safety issue was not a fault in the design of the gun. The M37 (and I believe the M12 Winchester) will not fire unless the trigger is pulled; if the trigger is held to the rear and the slide is operated without releasing the trigger, the gun will fire - the operator has to be holding the trigger to the rear. This was considered to be a useful feature during war, when fighting in the trenches of Europe.

Safety is the responsibility of the user; you do not rely on a mechanical feature of a firearm in order to be safe. Modern fireams with a safety were designed to make it less likely that unsafe use of a firearm would result in a negligent discharge. This provides some protection to the firearm manufacturer when a lawsuit arises from unsafe operation of their product by a careless owner.

Some recent handgun designs have done away with safety mechanisms, relying solely on extremely heavy trigger pull to prevent negligent discharge.

 

[gezzer]

Slam fire is very hard on the gun. I consider this a design flaw and so did Ithaca when they corrected it.

 

[Brian Williams]

It must not be too much of a design flaw because they made it removable just before they went belly up a few years ago.

 

[blackwinch]

No Flaw

I do believe that Ithaca used to advertise the 37 as the fastest gun in the field even faster than any of the autos including Brownings Auto 5.

 

[ZedD]

During what span of years did the 37 use a tang safety? My oldest is a 52, with crossbolt. Have handled a rem. 17 which the ithaca was derived from, & could swear they were also crossbolt safetys.

 

[Croyance]

Wasn't this feature considered a positive by those in the Border Patrol previous to WWII? I have a hard time imagining a guy like Askins turning down something that made him faster, even if it wore the gun out faster.

 

[Delivery McGee]

The safety issue was not a fault in the design of the gun. The M37 (and I believe the M12 Winchester) will not fire unless the trigger is pulled; if the trigger is held to the rear and the slide is operated without releasing the trigger, the gun will fire - the operator has to be holding the trigger to the rear. This was considered to be a useful feature during war, when fighting in the trenches of Europe.

The problem is that it might fire before it's completely closed, especially if you've don'e it a lot and things are getting worn. Acceptable risk is higher in the trenches than in the civilian world.

 

[azflyman]

The problem is that it might fire before it's completely closed, especially if you've don'e it a lot and things are getting worn. Acceptable risk is higher in the trenches than in the civilian world.

Do you know anyone that has experienced this? I have known a bunch of people that have owned "slam fire" 37's and don't know of it happening once. Most of those I knew only tried it to see if it worked, is was not a habit or even done frequently. I think you find that your accuracy goes to poop if you are actually trying to hit anything. I have probably shot 15 different 37's and only slam fired 3 rounds.

az

 

[Dave McCracken]

Model 97 and 12 Winchesters, the Remington 17 and the Ithaca 37 are the only popular shotguns I know of with the slam fire feature.

Outside of Herb Parsons, I've seen no one who could take advantage of the speed. It's nigh impossible to get hits more than 10 yards away unless you're shooting at hangars from the inside.

As for Askins, he used a Model 11 Remington with mag extension and his antics done today would get him locked up. Shoot first, ask later is not longer viable.

 

[Black_Talon]

During what span of years did the 37 use a tang safety?

M37's have never had a tang safety, only the cross-bolt safety behind the trigger guard. Pics of the very first (1933) prototype show the safety as visually identical to the production versions.

 

[.455_Hunter]

M37 Crossbolt Ambi-Safety?

Somewhere I heared that the M37's safety can be "flipped" for use by left handed shooters. Is this true?

Thanks.

 

[Hoppy590]

yup the model 12 does it aswell.wich led my dumbself to fire a round into the ground on my first trip shooting skeet :banghead:

 

[Lawyerman]

Back on topic....Ithaca Vs. Rem........

I have little use for the Ithaca 37. Parts are difficult to find at times and of course there is no factory support at this time. Accessories are unavailable-things like replacement stocks (there are a few-if you look hard, wood only, and VERY expensive) sidesaddles, single point adaptors,Ghost Ring sights, Big Head safeties etc.....How about a duck hunting barrel to go with your "combat" barrel....your gunsmith MAY be able to fit one for you....IF you can find one.

Unless you get one of the police versions you are stuck with a 5 round tube- it is not practical to up your round count in the Ithaca.

You cannot emergency load with the Ithaca-everything has to go through the magazine tube.

For versatility and ease of service you cannot beat the 870, no way, no how. As a bonus, most of them are at least as reliable as the Ithaca and price is the same or less due to their greater production numbers.

 

[azflyman]

Lwayerman - I am glad you have no opinion

I don't know what you feel like you need extra for a 37 but I have never needed more than 5 shots out of any shot gun, have you? There are very few 870's I have ever used that are as smooth as a 37. I never say never but on the average that is just how it is. I also have no interest is any of the tacticool stuff available for any shotgun. I like a full stock and wood works for me. Spare parts? How many 37 parts have you broken that you could not find? How many barrels have you looked for that you could not find? I understand you prefer a 870 but there are different points of view. If you are a lawyer you need to put a bit more into your argument. This is a matter of choice, I chose both but I will tell you my 37 gets more use. Action works just like buttah

az

 

[AStone]

I'm just posting this to subscribe to this thread.

There are names here that I resonate with,
that i've learned much from during the last year.

{Dr. McC, I'm looking
in your direction. Thanks.
There are others...}

37 v. 870?

Check user name,
add "P".

Boom.
Rack.

Boom.
Rack.

Boom.
Rack.

Boom.
Rack.

Boom.

<Re load>

 

[Fred Fuller]

The new issue of _The American Rifleman_ (July 2006, p. 21) announces that Ithaca's doors are now open again, though now located in Upper Sandusky, OH. The Model 37 is back in production (several variations) and there are plans to redesign and manufacture the Model 51 autoloader and a SXS double bearing Ithaca's name as well.

Ithaca Guns USA will be offering parts and service but will not be honoring warranties from Ithaca Guns LLC (1995- 2005) or the previous incarnations of the marque.

See the new company website at http://www.ithacagunsusa.com/ .
================

The 37 does have some advantages, it has an extremely short receiver and a lightweight design overall. Of course light overall weight in a shotgun often equals more felt recoil. I've known several quail hunters who swore by open choked 20 ga. 37s, we hunted on foot not from horseback and the Ithaca was easy to tote for miles through the brush and brambles. I've seen several of them with some wear on the gun have timing problems, dumping a live round out of the magazine each time they were cycled. They were great favorites in some circles, for lots of years. It's good to have the company back in business, I wish them much success.

lpl/nc

 

[AStone]

Ithaca Guns USA will be offering parts and service but will not be honoring warranties from Ithaca Guns LLC (1995- 2005) or the previous incarnations of the marque.

Lee,

Thanks for that update.

Don't know about you,
but that policy doesn't quite
strike me as "right".

Any thoughts?

Nem

 

[Fred Fuller]

Nem,

It's a new (different) company, and I can see why that was the call. The _Rifleman_ article says "...because of pending legal considerations, the company cannot honor warranties on guns manufactured by Ithaca Guns LLC...". What those legal considerations are I don't know, but I feel sure the new company will have a struggle on its hands to establish itself in a highly competitive marketplace without taking on that additional burden. I don't see the fact that they are not able to honor warranties offered by a different company which went bankrupt as a problem. At least the marque is back on its feet and can offer parts and service to those who need them, that's better for the owner than relegating a gun to the scrap heap because there are no parts available.

lpl/nc

 

[KINGMAX]

REMI - 870

Remington 870 gets my vote for the best pump 12 guage shotgun. It's like the old Sears DieHard 36 months - Just the best for what it is.

 

[Lawyerman]

There is no winning an argument that is based on emotion but I have not had good experiences with the 37 and much prefer the 870 for the following reasons-

The parts thing for example- the last 37 I bought had a timing issue. We traced it to the lifter, want to guess how much THAT COST? I paid only slightly more for the gun if that gives you an indication. Many of the guns I have examined have cracks in the buttstock where it joins the receiver, some worse than others-most useable as is but a few in real need of change out. Replacement wood is in limited availability and expensive for the Ithaca. I can go on Ebay right now and have my choice of 870 stocksets for $25.

I have had MANY occasions where I have wanted more than 5 rounds in a shotgun. Now understand that I am not much of a bird hunter, I dove and quail hunt socially-it seems like a waste of time shooting tiny little critters though. If you want something to eat go shoot something worth shooting- 200lbs and up, covered with hair.....but I digress....

So, my shotguns are primarily directed toward defensive use. In any tactical shotgun course worth it's salt they will run your gun dry- several times a day. It is one of the commonly recognized weaknesses of the shotgun as a tactical weapon-limited capacity and slow to reload. My way of thinking having run a gun dry several times and standing there with "bad guy"-targets still standing, more is better. This is especially true when you store the gun in cruiser ready, your 5 rounds just became 4 wherea with an 870 and an extension I have 6 or half again as many. Now, if tactical shooting is not an issue, none of this applies but for tactical application the 870 wins hands down on this issue and the whole aftermarket accessories department as well. Some of the add ons are junk and I prefer simple guns but some of them solve a real problem.

Barrels, there is exactly ONE m37 barrel on Ebay at the moment. It has 4 days left and it's already at $90. There are 75- 870 barrel items listed, now some of those are for clamps etc....but I can guarantee you that you WILL find the barrel you are looking for be it a .410, 28 gauge or 12 of whatever flavor and the price will be right. I also know that the barrel I buy will go right on the gun, not so with the Ithaca system, barrels are not fully interchangeable. I am in the position of having to provide 10-12 shotguns as loaners for a large Pheasant hunt every year. My 870's spend most of their time with Riot barrels afixed. Pheasant hunt comes and I spend 30 minute changing barrels. Voila! I now have 12 pheasant hunting guns which were an hour before alley sweepers.

And that brings up another issue- How many M37 Magnums have you seen? Yea, I thought so. Very rare and only the newest guns have choke tubes either where with an 870 it's easy to find a tubed barrel.

I just think the 870 is the superior all around gun. That doesn't mean the Ithaca won't get the job done or that a particular Ithaca isn't the better gun for a particular job but overall the 870 due to ease of configuration changes and popularity wins out. On top of that they are as reliable as any other design, proven by the large numbers in service that have digested uncountable numbers of rounds. You know, Remington could still be making the 37, they were in fact the original producers of that Browning Patent. They chose not to.

 

[AStone]

Lee,

Excellent points re Ithaca's reorganization. I have to agree there. (My irrational corporate-distrust-flag went up when I read your post about them last night.)

Also, re this statement:

{Dr. McC, I'm looking in your direction. Thanks. There are others...}

Just for the record, near the top of that "others" list is the name Lee Lapin.

There is so much knowledge here...

Lawyerman, nice essay. Good points there. Of course, I agree.

Nem

 

[Black_Talon]

The parts thing for example- the last 37 I bought had a timing issue. We traced it to the lifter, want to guess how much THAT COST? I paid only slightly more for the gun if that gives you an indication.

Carrier (lifter?)? You can get as many brand-new ones as you want from Numrich for $25.

Ithacas are real solid guns and very rarely break. A spare parts kit should probably include top/bottom extractors & their springs, a firing pin and spring and the little pivot pin/screw that holds the left side shell-stop. All these parts are readily available from Numrich, Les Hovencamp or Ron Sharp for the same general price as their 870 cousins.

Barrels, there is exactly ONE m37 barrel on Ebay at the moment. It has 4 days left and it's already at $90. There are 75- 870 barrel items listed, now some of those are for clamps etc....but I can guarantee you that you WILL find the barrel you are looking for be it a .410, 28 gauge or 12 of whatever flavor and the price will be right. I also know that the barrel I buy will go right on the gun, not so with the Ithaca system, barrels are not fully interchangeable.

Many of the guns I have examined have cracks in the buttstock where it joins the receiver, some worse than others-most usable as is but a few in real need of change out. Replacement wood is in limited availability and expensive for the Ithaca. I can go on Ebay right now and have my choice of 870 stocksets for $25

Barrels will run you $100-200 and are harder to find (but by no means scarce) than 870 bbls. The same with wood. M37 bbls are fully interchangeable (within caliber of course ) from guns serial numbered 855,000 and on. That encompasses every gun made from 1963 to the present, and the earlier barrels will quite often work with only very slight fitting.

And that brings up another issue- How many M37 Magnums have you seen? Yea, I thought so. Very rare and only the newest guns have choke tubes either where with an 870 it's easy to find a tubed barrel.

Ithaca's been making 3" mags since 1978, and every M37 made since 1996 has been chambered for 3" shells.

Addendum:

***This post made by one of the biggest 870 fans out there, but I also happen to appreciate other perfectly functional and well-designed SG's as well. Ithaca M37s and High Standard Flite-Kings for instance, are strong, easy-pumping, very well designed SGs that will easily hold their own with the 870. The reason they're not as common as 870's has much more to do with marketing and poor management than the quality or functionality of the guns themselves.