38-200 Hand Ejector (military?)

[waidmann]

The revolver in question is a 4 inch, with the exception of the lanyard loop commercial grade. It has no additional proof, inspection or property marks added. The serial number 685XXX puts it into the 1940/1 range, so I assume it went to a military contract.

Any ideas who received it?

 

[Old Fuff]

The history of the .38-200 model is an interesting one, because it literally saved Smith & Wesson from bankruptcy in 1940. At the same time the United Kingdom was also in a dark period as a probable German invasion loomed. Not unexpectedly England turned to the United States (which was supposed to be neutral) to purchase arms. At the time S&W owed the Brits. one million dollars (in 1940 dollars) from an advance on a 9mm carbine order that wasn't completed. The company was broke, so it offered to pay the obligation with revolvers (of which they had an oversupply) rather then cash. Fortunately the British accepted.

At the time their standard military handgun cartridge was a .38 S&W case loaded with a 200-grain bullet. Since all of the necessary tooling was in place, S&W offered to make their regular Military & Police (1905 Hand Ejector, 4th change) chambered to use the .38-200 cartridge in place of the usual .38 Special. Production was to have started at around 700,000 but earlier completed 38 Special's with lower numbers were converted to .38-200. All of the earlier revolvers were made to regular commercial standards, and to not upset American/German relations more then they were, S&W considered the order to be a commercial one - until after December 8, 1941 when the Germans declared war on the United States.

The revolver you have must be one of the earliest ones made, and was probably a converted .38 Special (new cylinder and possibly barrel). I have no idea why it wasn't shipped - but the lack of proof marks show it wasn't. Possibly is was sent to a defense contractor to arm the plant's security force.

Because of what it is, and the condition it's in I would value it at $500 to $600, and perhaps more to an advanced collector.

 

[waidmann]

38-200 cont'd

Thanks for your input. I wish the latch side was as pretty. While it has seen little to no use, it did suffer some metal-to-metal contact. I suppose I'll hang on to it. I have never seen one with the lanyard furniture and no additional markings.

Thanks again.

 

[Old Fuff]

This revolver is unusual enough that I recommend that you get it lettered. Details follow:

Information concerning historical letters of authentication from Smith & Wesson’s historian, Roy G. Jinks can be obtained from the link listed below.

In exchange for a $50.00 research fee (make any check out to Smith & Wesson, not Mr. Jinks) he will search through the company’s original records until he finds your particular revolver. He will then send you an official letter which usually includes:

A short history of the revolver model’s background.

What the barrel length, caliber/cartridge, finish and stocks were, as well as the exact date it was shipped from the factory – and to what distributor, dealer or individual – as whatever the case may be.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...catalogId=10001&content=25301&sectionId=10504

I would expect U.K. or Commonwealth proofmarks and military ownership stamps. In the time period under consideration (1940) 38-200 revolvers with 4" barrels (standard was 5") were uncommon. The total came to 18,753, with 13,847 of these going to South Africa. Thereafter, none. The total number of 38-200 revolvers made between 1940-45 came to 568,204, so as you can see the 4" length is a rare bird, especially in the United States.

With absolutely no evidence to prove it, I think that it might have gone to Canada, or more likely to a civilian factory here doing war production work. The demand for revolvers far exceeded the available supply. But most of the known "civilian" .38-200 revolvers were Victory Models, made during or after 1942 when Uncle Sam was paying the bills and Lend Leasing guns to allies. Under those circumstances a number of .38-200 revolvers ended up here rather then there - exclusively in domestic police departments or defense plants. Many if not most of them were sold after the war as surplus.

The revolver you have should have been purchased by the British Purchasing Commission (represented here by Winchester) and paid for by the British acting through Winchester. Remember, in 1940 we were not involved in the war, in fact were not officially involved until late December, 1941. Until about January 1, 1942 Uncle Sam shouldn't have gotten his sticky fingers on British paid-for arms, but who knows? Possibly Roy Jinks could throw some light on this.

Recently some collectors have become interested in 38-200 revolvers, and collectors sometimes have deep pockets, especially when it comes to the rare or unusual.

 

[Jim K]

There are three interesting things about that ".38-200" (or .38/200) designation.

The first is that while it was used at the factory and is often seen in contemporary documentation, it was never marked by the factory on the guns themselves; the right hand barrel marking was always ".38 S. & W. Ctg."

The second was that the guns never fired the .38-200 round, at least not in combat. The .38-200 round (Cartridge, S.A. Ball, Revolver, .380 in., MK I) used a lead alloy bullet that did not meet the Hague Convention rules. It was declared obsolete in January, 1938, and replaced by the Mk II round with a 178 grain jacketed bullet.

The third is that some .38-200 revolvers were issued in the U.S., primarily for non-military use, like plant guards, and the government provided full metal jacket ammunition for that caliber.

Jim

 

[Old Fuff]

The third is that some .38-200 revolvers were issued in the U.S., primarily for non-military use, like plant guards, and the government provided full metal jacket ammunition for that caliber.

That surprises me. The revolvers that were used by domestic police departments and plant guards were purchased, not issued, through a government agency called the Defense Supply Corporation (DSC) and because they were not used in a military context the ammunition was regular lead-bulleted 146-grain commercial loads.

The only jacketed ball ammunition I am aware of used a (give-or-take) 135 grain bullet, and was made in limited quantities by Winchester and Remington especally for the O.S.S.

 

[Pete D.]

MK.II round. A 178 grain jacketed bullet.
Yes, that is correct.
You can find illustrations at this link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38-200.

Pete

 

[waidmann]

38-200 cont'd

I will give the S&W letter consideration. Before this thread unravels, I have another question. Does anyone know if and with what the Union of South Africa may have marked their revolvers?

Recalling that the old aparthied U of SA was "gun friendly" for the right folks,
were any of these guns returned to the US? Especially since they were not lend-lease.

One last thought (concern?) I have not heard the term "lunch-box" in years.
Thoughts?

 

[Jim K]

Skennerton reports the South Africa property mark as a "U" with an upward pointing arrow between the uprights.

On the .38 S&W ammo, I misinterpreted what Pate wrote about some .38-200 revolvers being issued by the Army in CONUS "primarily for guard purposes." He does not say civilian guards, that was my error. But the OSS was the primary user, not for themselves but supposedly to pass on to resistance forces. In many cases, both the British and Americans were supplying arms to the resistance so use of the same ammo would make sense.

Hackley, Woodin & Scranton say that development of a FMJ load began in early 1944 at the request of the OSS, and Remington got a contract for 10,000 rounds for testing. The revolver mentioned was not the S&W M&P, but the Colt Police Positive, and the ammo was headstamped REM-UMC .38 Colt NP. After test and approval, a second contract was let for 50,000 rounds (!), which was delivered to the OSS. Later contracts were let for lead bullet rounds for training and for blanks for use by "government agents" for training and signalling. These were marked REM-UMC .38 S&W.

It is interesting to me how small the contracts were. Usually 100,000 rounds is considered a small ammo contract. For contrast, Remington delivered 3,447,000 rounds of .38 Special FMJ ammo during January 1943 alone. So a mere 50,000 rounds indicates that the OSS was not exactly open handed with that ammo. With that tiny amount, I can only assume that that ammo was for OSS agents, and that the bulk of the ammo used in the .38/200 revolvers was produced by the British.

Jim

 

[Old Fuff]

If the revolver had gone to South Africa I would expect it to be covered with (1) proof marks on the barrel, frame and cylinder, and (2) military ownership stamps (such as Jim described) on the frame. Also they were often stamped on the right side of the frame above and in front of the trigger guard; Not Britsh Made within a box. Last but not least, at the time the South Africans were fighting the Germans in North Africa, and the revolvers did not have an easy time. Most of those that survived were ultimately rebuilt and refinished. The one in question is all-original and in great shape.

 

[Jim K]

Those proof marks (including the NOT ENGLISH MAKE) are civilian marks, applied after the war when the guns were sold out of storage. The British did put some property marks (broad arrow) on guns they issued. But England also acted as a transhipment point for guns going to other Commonwealth nations; those they didn't mark, because the other nation would put on its own property mark. And if the guns were later placed on the market directly by other nations that did not have civilian proof laws, they would not be proved either.

Some of those guns are veritable history books; others have only the factory markings, though they actually went to war.

Jim