38/357-What size groups do you get at 25 meters?

[easyrider604]

Just curious. Whenever I tell people, in person or in forums like this, that I can get 4" groups at 25 meters shooting my own reloads/homecast 158 grain LSWC 38 spl +P (1,000 fps+), standing two-hand hold in Double Action out of my 6 inch GP100 or 6" 686...I get comments or looks that say "Wow, are you a lousy shooter or what?"

Almost full house 357 loads of 14 grain 2400 under 158 grain Speer JHP heads gives me 1 inch groups at 15 meters, on a good day.

BTW, my revolvers are totally box-stock with 2,000+ (GP) to 4,000+ (686) rounds through them

I know bullseye shooters can be really good but most shooters I see at my home range cannot come close to 4 inch groups at 25 meters. In fact, hardly any pistol shooter at my club shoots beyond 15 meters, which I also believe to be the maximum effective range of the average pistol/caliber and shooter.

So ladies and gentlemen, can you tell me what the smallest, biggest and the average group sizes, that you really get at 25 meters/yards? Thank you

 

[whalerman]

Easyrider, my five shot groups with a 686 Snub at 25yards with .357jhp's averages .012 inches. That's double action shooting with a quick draw while mounted on a bucking bronco.

Point being, just like pricing, where people claim then can purchase or have purchased guns for less than the other guy, accuracy stories have a way of getting tuned, toned, whittled, and exaggerated. I really enjoyed reading your post. You deserve an atta boy for honesty. Just don't expect it from all of us.

Oh, by the way. I think your 4" groups sound fine to me. Its better than I can do. Not by too much but still better.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I think 4" groups at offhand at 25 yards using DA is pretty darn fine shooting.

 

[JohnhenrySTL]

Thats as good as I can do on my best day. I see very few people capable of doing that. It seems to me, that the few that can do better can do way better. I could only do that in single action. I recently have enjoyed hitting paper plates at one hundred yards, most of the time. Lol.

 

[SEE IT LIKE A NATIVE]

I think that those are darn fine groups shooting double action and standing ! It does seem like those loads are a little hot for target shooting ! I bet you would improve if you reduced them ! Now if you are practicing for hunting or self defense , then they are excellent as I have never seen a man or beast hold still well enough that you could get a proper group ! Kevin

 

[Rexster]

Several years ago, some kind of fuzzy fungus started growing on the front sights of all of my firearms. Then, a couple of years ago, whenever I point a handgun at anything, a miniature cloudy weather system surrounds the front sight. I reckon I would be happy with any group smaller than a 9" paper plate at 25 yards. Actually, the ranges where I usually shoot handguns nowadays have a max distance of 15 yards, anyway. I have no idea what group size I could manage with iron sights, anymore. I am about ready to put an optic on a revolver.

All joking aside, posting one's group size on-line has always seemed to result in insults, and challenges to one's talent at one end, and truthfulness at the other end.

In my younger days, when I could still see, I would have been thrilled to shoot a 4" group at 25 yards.

 

[easyrider604]

Thank you for your candid replies, gentlemen. I felt good about my groups before, and feel better now.

My 686 wears an old Aimpoint 3000 on an Aimtech mount. The GP100 still on its original sights. I can do 4 inch groups but they are my best on a good day, not the average. Expanded groups go up to 8 inches on a bad day. I'd say average would be 5 - 6 inches on any day.

What is remarkable is that the GP can shoot as well as the Aimpointed 686 with its better trigger.

One of these days, I'll see about optimizing these guns for lead bullets, i.e. opening up cylinder throats to .358 or .359 and cutting an 11 degree barrel forcing cone. Its just the possibility of ruining their outstanding accuracy with 357 magnum 158 grain JHPs that prevents me from optimizing them.

 

[Walkalong]

I can do better than 4" @ 25 yards with a great gun/load on a good day, but can easily shoot an 8" group on a poor day. I know plenty of folks who could not shoot a 4" group @ 10 yards for love nor money.

Everything is bigger/smaller on the internet.

 

[MrBorland]

most shooters I see at my home range cannot come close to 4 inch groups at 25 meters.

Agreed. One won't wont often see someone print 4"@25, especially with a revolver, and especially while shooting double action. It gives me warm fuzzies.

One of these days, I'll see about optimizing these guns for lead bullets, i.e. opening up cylinder throats to .358 or .359 and cutting an 11 degree barrel forcing cone. Its just the possibility of ruining their outstanding accuracy with 357 magnum 158 grain JHPs that prevents me from optimizing them.

Yeah, tread lightly here. I'd look into the throats only if you have some good evidence they need to be opened up. In the meantime, I'd 1st experiment with some proven HBWC or LSWC target loads to see how they do.

 

[ole farmerbuck]

I know plenty of folks who could not shoot a 4" group @ 10 yards for love nor money.

Walkalong, you talking about me again? lol

 

[PRM]

Some days I get fairly consistent 4-6 inch groups two hand standing or kneeling at 25 yards. Other days they can open up to 8 or so inches.

The gun is capable of far more than I am (Colt Detective Special 2 inch).

Anyone who tells you four inch groups are bad at 25 yards, needs to put the video game down and smell some gun powder.

 

[DickM]

I've participated in Bullseye competition for about 30 years and seen shooters of all abilities, from the newest rookies to NRA High Masters.

The black center of the standard NRA 25-yard targets (either slow or sustained fire) measures about 5.25" in diameter (targets for other distances are scaled so the black subtends the same MOA). Any shooter who could consistently keep his shots in the black would be considered quite good and a welcome addition to any Bullseye team that I've shot on. Now, that's one-handed of course, but it's also typically with semi-autos that are tuned to target specifications.

I'd say that 4" groups with an out-of-the box revolver, two-handed, double action, at 25 m is very good shooting indeed.

 

[easyrider604]

Gents, I think my next question is "Do you shoot Single Action or Double Action at 25 meters, to obtain your best groups?"

My SA groups tend to be bigger than my DA groups. Like my best ever SA group at 25 meters, standing two hand hold, slow fire is at least 5 inches. Very disappointing. Probably my SA technique sucks. I cannot believe this result but it is true.

I think I am a freak....DA cannot be more accurate that SA...at least that's what conventional wisdom tells me and others say the same. In another thread, a few say they shoot better in DA, but the greater majority support the SA is more accurate theory. Logic tells me the latter are right, but in my little world, t'aint so.

 

[Geneseo1911]

No kidding. That's good shooting. I'm lucky to shoot a group that size in single action with .38 specials. That's the problem with the interwebz, and the reason I like THR. A lot less BS in here, and more helpful, honest people. The idiots get bored and go over to arfcom.

 

[MrBorland]

DA cannot be more accurate that SA...at least that's what conventional wisdom tells me and others say the same.

I don't say the same. Convention Wisdom begets Conventional Wisdom, so I use it in small doses when thinking outside the box*.

It's a tough issue to tackle, because one has to separate what's possible from what most actually do. Conventional wisdom tells us SA is more accurate, so target shooters shoot SA and don't develop their DA skills to the same level. OTOH, those interested in SD or action shooting shoot DA. They generally don't target shoot or cock the hammer, and their target accuracy reflects this.

But experience and some out-of-the-box thinking tells me DA can be as inherently accurate, or even moreso, than SA. The SA trigger is obviously lighter with less travel, so most are able to break the shot with less movement of the sight picture. But...once the sear breaks, a different story is told. I call it The Great Single Action Compromise, and the villains in this story are a longer lock time and more hammer jar. The longer lock time gives the shooter more opportunity to move their sight picture before the round fires, while the jarring of the muzzle upon hammer strike essentially insures the sight picture will move.

The DA trigger gets around the GSAC. Even better, lightening the hammer by conversion to DAO reduces lock time and hammer jar even more. For those who haven't seen it, I'm posting a link to a video demonstration of that effect*. Those who can do this in SA are invited to post their vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmy5mkjpUNI


FWIW, I don't formally target shoot (IDPA's my main game for now), but I can pretty consistently shoot 2 - 2.5" 5-shot 25 yard groups in double action. In the other thread easyrider mentioned, I posted a sub-1" 25 yard unsupported double action group with my stock 4" 617 .22LR. If I were to shoot bullseye or silhouette, my gun of choice would be a DAO revolver with a radically-bobbed hammer and smooth 6-7lb DA trigger pull.

*conventional wisdom might've convinced me ahead of time that simply balancing a coin on edge on a barrel isn't possible, either.

 

[wanderinwalker]

Nothing wrong or shameful about a 4" 25-yard group, especially shooting DA and standing. I'd call that far above average anywhere.

As was mentioned, most shooters are doing well to hold 4" at 30-50 FEET with a handgun. Suggest hitting something past 60-75 feet and they'll freak out.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds DA shooting "more accurate" than SA shooting with a DA revolver. I've been practicing almost exclusively with DA shooting, so much so that cocking the hammer to shoot my Smiths in SA mode feels odd. Even the 100-yard rifle plate isn't safe after a quick warm-up with my 4" Model 19. Though I am not brave enough to have it converted to a bobbed-hammer DAO configuration yet.

And don't worry about Internet accuracy claims. I've read enough claims of people being able to shoot 2-3" offhand groups with rifles at 100 yards to know most people aren't talking average, day-in day-out capability OR they are severely mistaken in range estimating. If you can shoot that well, you'd be able to clean up at the National Matches with ease.

 

[AFDavis11]

If I need 38 Specials to go 25 yards; I usually mail them.

 

[Loic]

I have a S&W 64 4inch barrel (38spl), I shoot a metal plate that i made @25 meters (im from France so metric works better for me...LOL) and I'm happy when all my rounds touch the target 9x10. 4" group at that distance, is to me really good. I'm reloading my ammo but so far I use 125 gr rnfp plated bullets with 4.3 gr of win 231.
As long as I can hit the plate with my 38 sol or 9mms at 25 meters I'm happy.

Sent from my EVO 3 D using Tapatalk

 

[NG VI]

I think I am a freak....DA cannot be more accurate that SA...at least that's what conventional wisdom tells me and others say the same. In another thread, a few say they shoot better in DA, but the greater majority support the SA is more accurate theory. Logic tells me the latter are right, but in my little world, t'aint so.

Single action shooting can become a crutch, the pull is lighter and the travel is shorter, but in many ways it can encourage bad habits. I found I started shooting my 686 much better after I went pretty much exclusively to DA shooting. DA shooting can be more difficult to master, but it doesn't have to be. If you focus on the fundamentals, you will shoot very well in DA mode, and it actually helps me to focus on them compared to single action.

 

[Yarddog]

I seem to shoot better off early on with my 357, The longer I shoot the more I inticipate the recoil. I know it's a bad habit & my eyes are getting worse ; ) PS 4" @ 25 yards is good in DA
Y/D

 

[MCgunner]

I think 4" groups at offhand at 25 yards using DA is pretty darn fine shooting.

Yep, about as good as I can do standing two hand deliberate fire DA. If I get in a hurry, they open up. To me, it don't get a lot better. Heck, off the bench sandbags at 25 yards shooting single action, my 3" Taurus 66 will only shoot 1.5" and my 4" Taurus 66 is a 1" gun. My eyes simply can't do any better with iron sights even bench rested. I don't think 4" is a lot of additional shooter error shooting off hand DA. I ain't a human Ransom Rest after all.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Ruger Security Six, full .357 loads, at 25 yards. Not measured, but the group is only slightly larger than the triggerguard area. This was two hands, over bags. 4 of the 6 could be covered with a quarter, and the two "flyers" could have been my fault.

[/IMG]

 

[MutinousDoug]

When I used to shoot Bullseye, I averaged about 90% over the season meaning for every time a shot a 10 or X, I shot an 8 in the same string. The 9 ring 25 yd target is 2.75" for slow fire and 5.5" for timed and rapid fire stages. My .45 is capable of 1.5" at 25 yds off bags.
I was rarely the best shooter in the league but usually shot in the top 20% or so.
I shoot a .45 better than revolver during the rapid fire stage so I'd agree with DickM that 4" double action is pretty respectable.
Most groups fired by critics seem to grow substantially in the harsh light of witnessed holes on paper.
Ask your "People" to join you in a 5 round match for a soda and see if they look at you funny.

 

[243winxb]

I know bullseye shooters can be really good but most shooters I see at my home range cannot come close to 4 inch groups at 25 meters.

Very true.

 

[mavracer]

DA or SA doesn't matter to me much for the majority of shots, but I'll usually throw fliers a little farther out DA. 3-4" offhand is about all the better I can do consistantly at 25 yards.