38/357-What size groups do you get at 25 meters?
- Thread starter easyrider604
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LTR shooter
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I can shoot better groups in the SA mode. Probably the same reason I can shoot a 1911 pistol better than a revolver in the DA mode.
In the old IHMSA metallic silhouette matches where competitors fired up to 200 meters distance I am confident most everyone that used a revolver fired in the SA mode.
I used to shoot in a bullseye league where one-hand shooting was mandatory and there was never anyone using DA fire with revolvers.
Those groups sizes are quite good at the 25 meter range with DA. Far better than most will ever accomplish.
Waywatcher
Member
I, also, typically do better with DA shooting over SA in my revolvers.
I am content to keep my shots in a 6"x6" square at 25 yards, standing (IDPA headbox).
You're doing very well!
I am content to keep my shots in a 6"x6" square at 25 yards, standing (IDPA headbox).
You're doing very well!
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Edit..25 yards
I have a 6in. Security six that I've owned for more than 30 years.
I've fired thousands of rounds through it.
Using a mid level 38 wadcutter load on a good day after 50
or so rounds of "warm-up" I can still shoot 3-4 in groups with
a flyer maybe every 15-18 rounds. Single or double action doesn't
matter, I can stage that trigger in my sleep left handed if need be.
Hot .357 loads usually end up about 5-6 inches. The gun will do
better over a rest.
About 6 months ago I bought a CZ from CZ Custom, one of their
tactical sports upper on a standard SA lower. It came with 3.1
pound trigger that is one of the best I"ve ever pulled. Still getting
used to it but just today shooting 124 grain Winchester "NATO"
ammo managed some 20 shot groups of about 3.5 inches.
Actually got through a whole mag without a flyer.
This is the best I've shot in about the last 30 years,
tomorrow....who knows!
I use those little hy-vis stick on orange bulls.....I can still
sorta see them!
The people I see that can do better are shooting about every
other day and are still in their 30s or are using optics.
I could shoot every day for six months and wouldn't get
any better....just broke!
Dave
I have a 6in. Security six that I've owned for more than 30 years.
I've fired thousands of rounds through it.
Using a mid level 38 wadcutter load on a good day after 50
or so rounds of "warm-up" I can still shoot 3-4 in groups with
a flyer maybe every 15-18 rounds. Single or double action doesn't
matter, I can stage that trigger in my sleep left handed if need be.
Hot .357 loads usually end up about 5-6 inches. The gun will do
better over a rest.
About 6 months ago I bought a CZ from CZ Custom, one of their
tactical sports upper on a standard SA lower. It came with 3.1
pound trigger that is one of the best I"ve ever pulled. Still getting
used to it but just today shooting 124 grain Winchester "NATO"
ammo managed some 20 shot groups of about 3.5 inches.
Actually got through a whole mag without a flyer.
This is the best I've shot in about the last 30 years,
tomorrow....who knows!
I use those little hy-vis stick on orange bulls.....I can still
sorta see them!
The people I see that can do better are shooting about every
other day and are still in their 30s or are using optics.
I could shoot every day for six months and wouldn't get
any better....just broke!
Dave
I've had days when I couldn't hit the ground with my HAT, much less a 4" bullseye at 25 yards. If I ever COULD shoot 4" at 25 yards DA standing with a .38/357, I am probably past it, now. On the other hand, I know an owner of a S&W M25 1955 match revolver who can probably shoot within 4" at well past 25 yards (DARN him!), because it's nearly all that he ever shoots. I'm almost embarrassed to go shooting with him.
I suspect that your level of practice approaches his, which may explain your very respectable performance in such matters.
I suspect that your level of practice approaches his, which may explain your very respectable performance in such matters.
BCRider
Member
Easy, I strongly suspect that when folks say "that's not very good" that the "25 meters" part just slipped right in one ear and out the other.
Few shoot handguns at that sort of distance so their first thought at hearing the size of the group would be at the sort of distance that they normally shoot. Or if they think about it at all they would not perceive 25 meters as being as far as it actually is.
The times I've shot for small groups at "our favourite indoor range in PoCo" at the max 17 yard distance I was able to get roughly 4 inch groups. But part of this is due to my eyesight. I can manage 1.5 to 2 inch groups at 12 yards with a variety of my handguns. The S&W revolvers in particular are the ones which manage the 1.5 inch gruops on my better days. Extrapolating this out to 17 yards I SHOULD be shooting better than I do. But the darn target is just so fuzzy by that time. At 25 meters? I could likely do decently if I could come up with a design for a target with a really high contrast bullseye that works with my vision issues.
But oddly enough I don't have any issue, or at least not MUCH of one hitting 6 inch steel targets at around 20 to 25 yards. It's all about the contrast.
Nope, can't wear my prescription glasses. If I try my close in vision is the pits. The front sight becomes a very indistinct blur.
Few shoot handguns at that sort of distance so their first thought at hearing the size of the group would be at the sort of distance that they normally shoot. Or if they think about it at all they would not perceive 25 meters as being as far as it actually is.
The times I've shot for small groups at "our favourite indoor range in PoCo" at the max 17 yard distance I was able to get roughly 4 inch groups. But part of this is due to my eyesight. I can manage 1.5 to 2 inch groups at 12 yards with a variety of my handguns. The S&W revolvers in particular are the ones which manage the 1.5 inch gruops on my better days. Extrapolating this out to 17 yards I SHOULD be shooting better than I do. But the darn target is just so fuzzy by that time. At 25 meters? I could likely do decently if I could come up with a design for a target with a really high contrast bullseye that works with my vision issues.
But oddly enough I don't have any issue, or at least not MUCH of one hitting 6 inch steel targets at around 20 to 25 yards. It's all about the contrast.
Nope, can't wear my prescription glasses. If I try my close in vision is the pits. The front sight becomes a very indistinct blur.
earplug
Member
Knee deep in brass
My best Bullseye league score with a 38 spl and a dot is a 96 25 yard slow fire fired SA. Thats a bit less then 3 inches.
I can't do it DA.
I have seen one shooter use DA at bullseye and he was better then I.
Just about all my DA shooting is USPSA or ICORE matches. Speed is better then small groups.
My best Bullseye league score with a 38 spl and a dot is a 96 25 yard slow fire fired SA. Thats a bit less then 3 inches.
I can't do it DA.
I have seen one shooter use DA at bullseye and he was better then I.
Just about all my DA shooting is USPSA or ICORE matches. Speed is better then small groups.
chicharrones
needs more ammo
EDIT: I removed the blah, blah, blah just to show how average I shoot. 25 yards shooting single action since the double action is broken on this gun. Ruger Single Six firing .22 Magnum ammo yesterday afternoon. It is not .38 Special or .357 Magnum, but my shooting is about the same.
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Cop Bob
Member
+1......
You will find that ammo has a lot to do with it, as far as THE GUN ITSELF... Human factors.. well...
Try lots of different brands and bullet weights, some guns, and it will vary from individual gun to individual gun.. I use a Ransom Rest religiously..it take the human factor out of the equation ..
Accuracy is one of the main reasons that I reload... when I find a round that shoots.. that's it.. were done.... it is amazing how much a change of primers, a 2 tenths of a grain of powder, or a change in seating depth will effect overall accuracy..
Load, or buy ammo for your purpose, by speed and bullet weight and design.. Field testing into duct seal, or gelatin, along with a chronograph will assist is settling in on you "Ideal" load... But I tend to take the accuracy thing to the edge... my belief is that if it isn't on target, all else is futile...
Then when you find your "Ideal" load, Practice, Practice, Practice... Perfect Practice makes Perfect... stay with the fundamentals, grip, trigger control, and breathing, sight alignment.. without it...MEH... your just making noise... fun noise, but noise none the less....
You will find that ammo has a lot to do with it, as far as THE GUN ITSELF... Human factors.. well...
Try lots of different brands and bullet weights, some guns, and it will vary from individual gun to individual gun.. I use a Ransom Rest religiously..it take the human factor out of the equation ..
Accuracy is one of the main reasons that I reload... when I find a round that shoots.. that's it.. were done.... it is amazing how much a change of primers, a 2 tenths of a grain of powder, or a change in seating depth will effect overall accuracy..
Load, or buy ammo for your purpose, by speed and bullet weight and design.. Field testing into duct seal, or gelatin, along with a chronograph will assist is settling in on you "Ideal" load... But I tend to take the accuracy thing to the edge... my belief is that if it isn't on target, all else is futile...
Then when you find your "Ideal" load, Practice, Practice, Practice... Perfect Practice makes Perfect... stay with the fundamentals, grip, trigger control, and breathing, sight alignment.. without it...MEH... your just making noise... fun noise, but noise none the less....
Cop Bob
Member
BC Rider: try and not focus on the target.. It is humanly impossible to focus on three planes at once.. Proper sight picture should be, Clear, sharp focus upon the front sight, rear sight slightly out of focus (little fuzzy) and the target, a blur in the backgound with the front sight resting in the center of that fussy object.. The rest is basics... master the basics and you can't be beat.. (I'm still trying)
One of the best shooting students I EVER had... (a natural !)... was legally blind, but had unbelievable motor skills, (the guy had 10 300 game bowling rings!) He wore literally coke bottle thick glasses, and could drill an NRA B-27 target with 2" groups at 25 yards... he said "I can't see S&($!, just a big blur! But the front sight was razor sharp to him.. The bullet follows the front sight..
Kinda took my 1st shooting coaches point about sight picture home a bit.. Go figure...
One of the best shooting students I EVER had... (a natural !)... was legally blind, but had unbelievable motor skills, (the guy had 10 300 game bowling rings!) He wore literally coke bottle thick glasses, and could drill an NRA B-27 target with 2" groups at 25 yards... he said "I can't see S&($!, just a big blur! But the front sight was razor sharp to him.. The bullet follows the front sight..
Kinda took my 1st shooting coaches point about sight picture home a bit.. Go figure...
I rarely shoot at 25 yards with a handgun. Since all of my range shooting involves a paper target, sometimes a paper plate, with a roll of hay as a backdrop I feel good if I hit the plate with any of my handguns at that distance. I have a 1965 Colt Trooper and is pretty accurate when I take the time to practice with it. My sp101 I usually shoot at 10-15 paces and can generally hold 4" groups. Remember that I am not at a "range" with defined yardages. I am in my hay field about 50 yards from my front door. At my age I have trouble focusing with iron sights on most guns so age and lack of practice are the villains.
floydster
Member
KodiakBeer
member
I'm used to one hole groups.
Until I take a second shot and spoil it.
.
Until I take a second shot and spoil it.
.
beatledog7
Member
I don't practice .357 at 25 yrds because my indoor range is limited to about 17 yrds. I can drive 30 miles and shoot much longer, outdoors. That doesn't happen often.
I can usually shoot 6-8" groups offhand at 17 yrds from my short-barreled Security Six. I call that good enough offhand since that's the longest real-world .357 shot I'll probably ever have to take. If I really take my time, I might achieve 4-6" on a good day.
Recently I acquired a pistol bench rest, and I'll get it tried out eventually. I'll never know for sure how accurate my handloads are without a rest.
I can usually shoot 6-8" groups offhand at 17 yrds from my short-barreled Security Six. I call that good enough offhand since that's the longest real-world .357 shot I'll probably ever have to take. If I really take my time, I might achieve 4-6" on a good day.
Recently I acquired a pistol bench rest, and I'll get it tried out eventually. I'll never know for sure how accurate my handloads are without a rest.
Zeke/PA
Member
I shoot a S&W 686, a vintage K-38 and my present 638 CCW.
With reloads from rest, single action at 25 yards, my groups are under 3" with the "K" and the 686.
With the 638 at the same range, I'm happy if I can hit a pie plate every shot.
The 1950 era K-38 by the way is a SUPER handgun.
With reloads from rest, single action at 25 yards, my groups are under 3" with the "K" and the 686.
With the 638 at the same range, I'm happy if I can hit a pie plate every shot.
The 1950 era K-38 by the way is a SUPER handgun.
easyrider said:
I don't know what they are talking about. 4" at 25 meters (yards), even with shooting with both hands is pretty darn good.
In Bullseye as has been mentioned, we shoot at 25 yards and 50 yards with just the one hand. Most of my training is at 25 yards as that is where most of the shooting and points are.
4" shooting would get you around a 95%. (the 10-ring is about 3" and the 9-ring is 5")
Shooting Double Action is harder to do but can be done, but I know of only one guy, maybe two, who shoot the revolver DA. (Although most people shoot the 1911 in both the center-fire and .45 matches, there are more and more people shooting their revolvers now that there is a Distinguished Revolver award)
I personally really like shooting .38s out of my Model 27
oldfool
Member
OP must hang out with a bunch of competition shooters (or rather their comp forums)
don't kid yourself, there are a lot of competition shooters who "can do", pro or not
but for us average-joe casual once-a-week weekly range day shooters, who shoot a variety of guns and calibers, I don't think I have seen one yet who can consistently shoot those groups off hand at 25 yards/meters.. lots of 'em can do it at half that distance, but groups don't stick to linear proportional geometry when you double distance, they just don't
this is where I ought tell y'all what I used-to-could..
(did I ever tell you the story about that 12# bass I caught, what shrunk on down to 4# in the livewell on the way home ?
)
don't kid yourself, there are a lot of competition shooters who "can do", pro or not
but for us average-joe casual once-a-week weekly range day shooters, who shoot a variety of guns and calibers, I don't think I have seen one yet who can consistently shoot those groups off hand at 25 yards/meters.. lots of 'em can do it at half that distance, but groups don't stick to linear proportional geometry when you double distance, they just don't
this is where I ought tell y'all what I used-to-could..
(did I ever tell you the story about that 12# bass I caught, what shrunk on down to 4# in the livewell on the way home ?
)351 WINCHESTER
Member
When I was a kid I had a nylon 66 (rifle). I shot it a lot and became quite good with it. I could hit hand tossed quarters 80% of the time and golf balls about 100%. A lot had to do with the toss though, as I did not shoot every time.
mbopp
Member
My best group was 1-1/4", 5-shots, 25 yards SA from a rest using my S&W 4" 19-3. Offhand, it's a good day if I can hit a 6" plate at 25 yards consistently.
To the OP, yes, your shooting is outstanding. Relatively few handgunners shoot this well!
Here's a few my target scans . . .
The first was shot standing/unsupported @ 25 yards . . . single action. The revolver was a 1964-era "flat latch" Model 36 J-frame. I'd just bought it and these were the very first targets I shot with it. A "keeper" for sure!
I make my own targets on the computer, and find that a square target, @ the ratio of 1" in black square size per 10 yards really sits well on the top of the S&W revolver sights. Thus the 25 yard target has 2 1/2" squares, and the ten yard target below it is a 1" square.
I don't normally scan my targets so I don't have a lot to post, but a ratio of a 1" group per ten yards is about right for me . . . though it was easier when I was in my 30s to "see" the best sight picture. LOL
I do compete double action with my S&W revolvers (steel and pin matches) and love the way they all shoot, much better than my bottom feeders!
BTW, on the above 25 yard target I was using .38 Special 148 gn wadcutters out of that little J frame snubbie . . . so I was aiming at the top square and the rounds "rainbowed" into the lower target. LOL
Below is the very first target with this little snubbie @ ten yards at the same session. A fine shooting revolver indeed!
The following target (5" black square) was shot standing/unsupported/SA at fifty yards with a Model 29-5 topped with a Holosight. I deer hunt with this .44 Mag and have for years and I was simply verifying the rig was still holding its zero at the start of the season. I was (and still is)! 1 13/16" group @ 50 yards . . . the best standing unsupported group I've made at that range.
This past season I was slowly coming down a ladder stand when a coyote passed behind my stand at 40 yards. I slowly drew the .44 Mag while holding the stand with my "weak" hand . . . and dropped him in his tracks @ 40 yards one-handed/unsupported. It made my day . . . I HATE those things!
FRANKLY THOUGH . . . I shoot most of my test targets at 10 yards, for the grouping ratio is generally about the same at further distances . . . if I do my job. Here's a first test of a S&W Model 1903 (5th Change) .32 S&W Long revolver I picked up last year. It was made in 1916 and I was trying various ammo in it. Obviously . . . it "liked" THIS load a lot. Distance: 10 yards . . . S&W made great revolvers back then too!!!
Here's a few my target scans . . .
The first was shot standing/unsupported @ 25 yards . . . single action. The revolver was a 1964-era "flat latch" Model 36 J-frame. I'd just bought it and these were the very first targets I shot with it. A "keeper" for sure!
I make my own targets on the computer, and find that a square target, @ the ratio of 1" in black square size per 10 yards really sits well on the top of the S&W revolver sights. Thus the 25 yard target has 2 1/2" squares, and the ten yard target below it is a 1" square.
I don't normally scan my targets so I don't have a lot to post, but a ratio of a 1" group per ten yards is about right for me . . . though it was easier when I was in my 30s to "see" the best sight picture. LOL
I do compete double action with my S&W revolvers (steel and pin matches) and love the way they all shoot, much better than my bottom feeders!
BTW, on the above 25 yard target I was using .38 Special 148 gn wadcutters out of that little J frame snubbie . . . so I was aiming at the top square and the rounds "rainbowed" into the lower target. LOL
Below is the very first target with this little snubbie @ ten yards at the same session. A fine shooting revolver indeed!
The following target (5" black square) was shot standing/unsupported/SA at fifty yards with a Model 29-5 topped with a Holosight. I deer hunt with this .44 Mag and have for years and I was simply verifying the rig was still holding its zero at the start of the season. I was (and still is)! 1 13/16" group @ 50 yards . . . the best standing unsupported group I've made at that range.
This past season I was slowly coming down a ladder stand when a coyote passed behind my stand at 40 yards. I slowly drew the .44 Mag while holding the stand with my "weak" hand . . . and dropped him in his tracks @ 40 yards one-handed/unsupported. It made my day . . . I HATE those things!
FRANKLY THOUGH . . . I shoot most of my test targets at 10 yards, for the grouping ratio is generally about the same at further distances . . . if I do my job. Here's a first test of a S&W Model 1903 (5th Change) .32 S&W Long revolver I picked up last year. It was made in 1916 and I was trying various ammo in it. Obviously . . . it "liked" THIS load a lot. Distance: 10 yards . . . S&W made great revolvers back then too!!!
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Seems like a darn fine group to me. 4" at 25 yards, offhand? I'd take that and call it a successful day.
I've worked up loads that my 5.5" 357 Redhawk loves - benchrested, I can get sub 1" groups if I really, REALLY focus, at 25 yards. Offhand, same loads, same distance, I get about 6" groups most days, my best is in the 3-4" range.
If I can keep all my shots on an 8" paper plate at 25 yards, I'm a happy camper.
I've worked up loads that my 5.5" 357 Redhawk loves - benchrested, I can get sub 1" groups if I really, REALLY focus, at 25 yards. Offhand, same loads, same distance, I get about 6" groups most days, my best is in the 3-4" range.
If I can keep all my shots on an 8" paper plate at 25 yards, I'm a happy camper.
Peter M. Eick
Member
I am just now switching for 15 to 25 yrds so my targets have been running about 6 to 8" for 50 shots. Not good and it shows why I am switching. 25 yrds my goal is all in the black right now and then focus on improving over time.
sugarmaker
Member
I read this and went downstairs, measured a target still stuck to the box. 6.5" 30 shot group / 25Y 1 handed DA from my 686 6" iron sight shooting 125's at 970FPS. This was rapid fire (5 shots 10 sec). I did the DA just to see what happened.
Shooting a 4" 2 handed DA group with full house I would think was respectable.
Shooting a 4" 2 handed DA group with full house I would think was respectable.
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