38 +p or 357 for sd

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Not enough such incidents for me to worry about. I don't worry about getting struck by lightning either.

And that is absolutely your choice. Never the less, home invasions do sometimes turn into gunfights because the intruder does not always flee after the defender's first shot. And now you have evidence to support that. What you do with that information is entirely up to you.
 
I guess if the perp is hyped on crystal meth or fentanyl they might just keep coming at you until they are critically disabled or your gun is empty and they keep coming. That is where you may want a backup gun handy.

Good idea, but we're talking about .38 vs. .357. A round from either in the cranium or lungs will make them stop what they're doing.
 
Well here you go then. In each case the gunfight went both ways, and at least one resident of the home was armed and actively used their firearm.

This guy didn't flee, he stayed and kept attacking:
https://www.kltv.com/2021/02/25/dead-injured-rusk-county-home-invastiongunfight/

How does this disprove my point? Who fired first? Shots were fired, which was the end of the attack, and the perp died.

These guys left, after shooting 2 people living in the home: https://www.denverpost.com/2021/02/21/denver-home-invasion-shooting-saturday/amp/

It happens. And probably more often than is reported in the news, because crimes in poor and minority neighborhoods often don't get much media coverage.

I never said homeowners never get shot in a home invasion, I said normally the perp flees when shot at, which is true. In these cases we also need to throw out incidents where the invader and homeowner knew each other, as in a drug deal that went bad. I would assume that doesn't appy to anyone on this forum.
 
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And that is absolutely your choice. Never the less, home invasions do sometimes turn into gunfights because the intruder does not always flee after the defender's first shot.

I didn't say they always flee, just that they normally do and I'm not aware of any exceptions.

And now you have evidence to support that.

Not really.
 
You stated that civilians stop shooting when atta =ckers flee, when attachers flee, implying that sworn officers do not.

Right?

Yes, police will pursue, unlike a homeowner, and that pursuit may involve more shooting, and death or jail to the perp. Do you disagree with that?
 
said normally the perp flees when shot at, which is true.
Is that something that you have hears somewhere, or it the product of your imagination?

Do you still contend that that happens when civilians are attacked, but not in officer-involved shootings?

Yes, police will pursue, unlike a homeowner, and that pursuit may involve more shooting, and death or jail to the perp. Do you disagree with that?
Usual police practice is for officers at the scene to call in a description, after a suspect has fled, and other units in patrol cars and rotorcraft will pursue. The officers at the scene may, of course, pursue a fleeing suspect themselves, depending upon the situation.

Sworn officers may not lawfully use deadly force to stop a fleeing suspect in this country except under extremely limited circumstances. Their legal objective is to take the subject into custody, and not to shoot.

That has nothing at all to do with the discussion at hand.
 
How does this disprove my point? Who fired first? Shots were fired, which was the end of the attack, and the perp died.

Well what actually is your point right now? It keeps changing and I'm having a hard time figuring out what you're looking for (other than to feel justified in what you choose for home defense, and possibly some kind of "win").

I never said homeowners never get shot in a home invasion, I said normally the perp flees when shot at, which is true.

I never said you never said homeowners don't get shot. But it seems to me you've painted this picture in your head that if a homeowner shoots a gun, the intruder will leave immediately. I've pointed out that this is not always the case, and that occupants of the home can be shot as a result. Getting shot but having the intruder die in hospital or flee, aren't positive outcomes if I've already been shot. Maybe you feel differently.

In these cases we also need to throw out incidents where the invader and homeowner knew each other, as in a drug deal that went bad. I would assume that doesn't appy to anyone on this forum.

That's called "moving the goal posts". Now you're saying we must change the criteria, to fit your narrative. They were both home invasions. Unless you've done further research and would like to share it, the motives appear to be unknown. Did I missed key details? Care to share?
 
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Is that something that you have hears somewhere, or it the product of your imagination?

See my post #17, from the guy that did the research published in American Handgunner, that's where I 'hears' it.

Do you still contend that that happens when civilians are attacked, but not in officer-involved shootings?

Generally, yes. How many times do I have to say that?

Usual police practice is for officers at the scene to call in a description, after a suspect has fled, and other units in patrol cars and rotorcraft will pursue. The officers at the scene may, of course, pursue a fleeing suspect themselves, depending upon the situation.

Sworn officers may not lawfully use deadly force to stop a fleeing suspect in this country except under extremely limited circumstances. Their legal objective is to take the subject into custody, and not to shoot.

Taken into custody isn't something that will happen with home invasions, which is why they flee. Cops certainly are going to return fire.

That has nothing at all to do with the discussion at hand.

So quit talking about it.
 
See my post #17, from the guy that did the research published in American Handgunner, that's where I 'hears' it.
That was about wounds with .22 bullets, and it explains that they rarely effect physical stops. Got it?
Generally, yes. How many times do I have to say that?
Okay but that is not accepted fact, by any means.
Taken into custody isn't something that will happen with home invasions,
Usually true.
..which is why they flee
That does not follow at all. Criminals also flee from police officers--as previously discussed.
Cops certainly are going to return fire.
And so will I.
Paul, I really don't like putting it this way, but it is becoming increasingly clear that you do not know what you are talking about.
 
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That was about wounds with .22 bullets, and it explains that they rarely effect physical stops. Got it?

No it wasn't, go read the article? Like a perp is going to tell which caliber whizzed by his ear? It wasn't even talking about wounds.

Paul, I really don't like putting it this way, but it is becoming increasingly clear that you do not know what you are talking about.

Pot, meet kettle.
 
No it wasn't, go read the article? Like a perp is going to tell which caliber whizzed by his ear? It wasn't even talking about wounds.
Oh yes it was! I was referring to this:

"The reader asked me to explain why I considered the .22 stops to be more likely “psychological stops” as opposed to physical incapacitations. That’s easy to explain ... The problem is the historic lack of penetration in the .22 round.

"If the .22 bullet doesn’t cause CNS disruption or extensive blood loss, it won’t physically incapacitate an attacker. That’s why I commented that the .22 stops are likely to be more psychological in nature."​

You seem to be putting a lot of stock in this:

"...the difference between police and armed citizen gunfights. My friend Claude Werner often points out that when a criminal is involved in a gunfight with the police, the stakes are higher. The criminal knows that the cops won’t stop until he’s dead or in jail. That’s not true with a gunfight against an armed citizen. The armed citizen just wants a break in the fight. If he can cause the criminal to flee, he wins and stops shooting.

"When criminals fight the police, they are likely to fight harder and take more rounds before giving up, because they know giving up equals a long prison sentence."
There is no objective evidence that supports that idea, and it does not begin to support your contention that attackers are more likely to flee from civilians than from police officers. It is about giving up.

"Giving up" is not what you have been discussing. You have been discussing fleeing. People flee from law enforcement officers all the time, and since 1987, the police have been forbidden from shooting at fleeing suspects except under the rarest of circumstances.

Once police officers have caught up with criminals who have fled, they are limited to the use of less lethal compliance tools to take them into custody. They may only resort to deadly force in self defense. That is a rare occurrence.

Now, back to the discussion of attackers fleeing from civilians. Yes, they may do that, if the defender is not located between the attacker and the exit, or if the attacker does not need the defender's car for his departure, or if he can stop shooting without being shot.

Otherwise, it would be reasonable to expect them to keep shooting.

You have presented this line of discussion to somehow support the idea that a .38 Special is usually no less effective for self defense than a .357 Magnum for self defense.

I happen to agree with that conclusion, but not for the came reasons.

I have been engaged in a number of defensive gun use incidents. I did not fire--it was abundantly clear to the violent criminal actors that they would stand little chance if I fired.

I did not want a "break in the fight". There were no "fights". They could not know what I might have wanted. They had nt way of knowing that I would allow them to depart--until I ordered them out, only I knew that.
 
I think we are forgetting a few things in this conversation. Chemistry or how high a suspect is, does he feel pain what is his reasoning ability. Human nature! We all know the term "Fight or Flight". Did the suspect expect to be confronted or did he think he had the upper hand? Your hit, critical wound or not how much pain did you inflict as in nerve endings struck or destroyed? Was it enough to cause panic and fear or in some cases disorientation or anger? We give bad guys too much credit. They are predatory animals, path of least resistance type of people for the most part. This would count for about 80% of burglaries and robberies, they don't expect a problem, or they would have gone next door or too a more docile victim. We all would like a pistol bullet to be the Hammer of Thor, they are not no matter the caliber.

As far as Police confrontations there is what used to be termed "Suicide by Cop". This person is not going anywhere. Back to chemistry. Is the person in such a state that they do not feel the pain or even if they do are they intoxicated to the point that the brain does not register it? Additionally, are they able to intelligently process the danger that they are now in or do they resort to a fight instinct and keep pulling the trigger in return.

That was all about criminals, rapists and thieves. There are those that are mentally ill! He usually has the strength and will of three people, he has no inhibitions. He came to kill and will do so only if stopped dead so to speak. Then there is the Devil Himself, a stone-cold killer. I think everyone understands the proper response there. Not many around, the vast majority of situations fall under what I mentioned above but every once in a while, this type makes an appearance.

This is why I always looked at the "One Shot Stopping Power" compilations as decent information but there are way too many variables to consider it gospel. Just my thoughts compiled while studying for my PHD in Human Nature at the University of Brooklyn North.
 
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I use FEDERAL 130 grain +P HST in my 4 inch barreled .38 Specials and .357 magnums. This ammo has moderate recoil, average flash and muzzle blast and I find it quite pleasant to shoot in my medium frame guns. I used to use 110 grain .357 magnum ammo which is more controllable than the 125 grain .357 magnum ammo that established the .357's man stopping reputation. The HST is easier to control and I can shoot the rounds faster,.because of the
reduced recoil.
The only negative with the HST, aside from finding it, is that it has a profile similar to a full wadcutter round and is more difficult to load when you are in a hurry. For my speedloaders, I use DOUBLE TAP 110 grain jhp rounds. They have the same profile as the average jhp, so using them with a speedloader is not a problem.
If I could not get the HST, I would use the DOUBLE TAP 125 grain +P .38 Specials. They are both +P loads, but the DOUBLE TAP is the hotter round with 1100 fps or more from a 4 inch barrel., so there is more recoil, flash and noise.

Jim
 
Without reading the last five pages of back and forth…

the answer for me is 38+p. I shoot them more accurately and faster and believe that follow up shots, especially indoors, will be much more effective.

if I knew that one aimed shot was all it would take I would use .357. But in the wide range of possibilities the .38+p makes more sense for me.

And I have shot a .357 indoors.

But each to their own.
 
For me, it's 38+P in most circumstances. If I'm going into the boondocks in my Jeep, it's 357. My home defense weapon and my EDC are both loaded with 38+P..
 
I keep a pair of protective electronic earmuffs in my bedroom along with a bright flashlight and HD firearms.

In the case of the revolver it is a .357 Magnum yet typically loaded with .38 Special +p when carried around the house in a pocket. I simply cannot imagine how a .357 Magnum must sound in the very limited confines of a house (not even the benefit of the length of an indoor shooting range) and that does certainly influence that decision.

It is unreasonable for me to carry hearing protection as I move around my home for day-to-day tasks.
 
OP#1
Given: self-defense, house in town, 4"barrel revolver.
Query: "do you choose 38+P or full house .357"

My answer: currently in my house gun 38+P.
Reason: if it came to shooting indoors, being able to hear would be a bigger asset than the difference in effect of 38+P vs full house 357
 
OP#1
Given: self-defense, house in town, 4"barrel revolver.
Query: "do you choose 38+P or full house .357"

My answer: currently in my house gun 38+P.
Reason: if it came to shooting indoors, being able to hear would be a bigger asset than the difference in effect of 38+P vs full house 357

And the .38 will be more controllable for follow-up shots if needed.
 
Not really, I'm talking about a miss, either round in the vitals will do it.
Vitals will do it.
If you're going to miss?....then, I'm not sure why your debating?
A "miss" with a 357 is going to at least be impressive! And intimidating.
It's undeniable the 357 is more effective.
In more ways than one.
 
Vitals will do it.
If you're going to miss?....then, I'm not sure why your debating?
A "miss" with a 357 is going to at least be impressive! And intimidating.
It's undeniable the 357 is more effective.
In more ways than one.

Actually, it is deniable, but then we've been through all this.
 
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