Light 357 or 38+p

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Bill_in_TR

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If this has been discussed before I apologize. My search didn't find it.

If you have a short barreled 357 revolver (4" or less) and for most shooting you wish to keep muzzle blast and recoil more manageable would you shoot lighter 357 loads or 38+p loads. Assume you are able to load your own if necessary.

The idea is you want to use and practice with a more powerful load than 38 special but you don't want to use full house 357 except in special circumstances. I am not familiar with all the current commercial loads are that might fit the bill.

Just curious if people feel going with one or the other has any advantage or is it a wash?
 
Done all the time, usually with what the internet would call +P+.
Q.V. Skeeter Skelton and Elmer Keith. 13.5 gr no 2400 and a 158 - 170 gr semiwadcutter. Usually backed down to 12.5 or 13 these days.

There are factory loads, Remington used to sell "medium magnums" but I don't know if they still do.
The 110 grain .357 as seen in Winchester White Box is really a reduced load, not as fast as the usual 125.
 
I do have the option to reload for the circumstance you describe and usually pump up .38 special to +P
Their pretty stiff, but not in the .357 range, which i rarely light off any more.
My particular logic is that by using the shorter .38 case with an appropriate dose of powder and a 140 JHP Im pretty much where my SD ammo is, simply to make revolver reloads with a speed loader, easier, due to the cartridge length vs the .357
 
Sounds to me like you are looking for an equivalent load to the old (1930) 38-44 cartridge introduced by S&W along with their Heavy Duty revolver. This ammunition was loaded in 38 Special cases and pushed a 158g bullet at 1125 fps. It was intended for the above mentioned N-frame revolver. At that time S&W referred to their large frame Hand Ejectors as "44 Frames" while the medium K-frame was called a "38 Frame". The combination of the two was the source of the name "38-44".

To see what it was like you can shoot Buffalo Bore's Heavy +P 38 Special rounds with the 158g lead bullets. They offer both a hollow point and a solid, which they call the "Outdoorsman" or something close to that. I've chronographed the HP rounds from a 4" barrel Heavy Duty and they are right on for the old 38-44's velocity.

Hand loads can be put together for practice with 158g bullets (I usually use plated FPs) over about 11.5g of 2400. From the same 4" revolver mentioned above I got 1127 fps and 1141 fps from a 5" Heavy Duty. If you try this recognize this load is way above any recommended +P load you will find today. It is mentioned for historical context and to demonstrate what I've had to do to duplicate the Buffalo Bore Heavy +P performance. Try it at your own risk and only in a stout revolver.

Dave
 
Dave,

Any of these loads would be used in a 357 revolver so even a stout +p should be OK. I was mainly curious if people felt there was any reason to favor a light 357 load or a 38+p load.

I know I prefer loading full length 44 magnum shells rather than using 44 special shells in my Redhawk. I always wound up with burnt powder residue in the front of my chambers with 44 special brass. I suppose the same issue would come into play with 357 vs 38 special brass.
 
If this has been discussed before I apologize. My search didn't find it.

If you have a short barreled 357 revolver (4" or less) and for most shooting you wish to keep muzzle blast and recoil more manageable would you shoot lighter 357 loads or 38+p loads. Assume you are able to load your own if necessary.

The idea is you want to use and practice with a more powerful load than 38 special but you don't want to use full house 357 except in special circumstances. I am not familiar with all the current commercial loads are that might fit the bill.

Just curious if people feel going with one or the other has any advantage or is it a wash?
I think the advantage lies in which brass you have the most of to reload. A .38 Spl +P with a 158 grain bullet runs about 800-850 fps MV, a"light" .357 with the same bullet will run around 1000 fps. If you have other .38 Spl guns, you might have more .38 brass to load with and shoot from the .357 guns. The only downside I see to that is cleaning the powder ring from the chamber so you can use .357 ammo and not have seating or extraction issues. as far as the muzzle blast goes, use a faster powder for the short-barreled guns, there won't be as much unburned powder or powder still burning as the bullet exits the barrel.

I use both, only because I have a lot of .38 and .357 brass, and I clean my revolvers after every range session. For me it's a wash. For the record, I have two .357's with 6" barrels, one with a 4" and one with a 2-1/2".
 
My current practice load is a 158 grain LSWC in a Starline .357 case with magnum primers over 4.3 grains of Universal. When I carry I use some old issued .38 Special +p 158 grain LSWCHP I still have (FBI Load).
 
Depends partly on whether handloading is an option. I've gotten to dislike the chamber cleaning obligation that comes with shooting short brass in a long chamber, so rarely shoot .38s in a .357 Magnum. Even when I want very light loads in my .357, I put them up in .357 cases.

The catch here is that in a short barrel, I like to use faster powders, believing that I get more velocity and less unburned powder. In factory loads you are stuck with whatever powder they use, which may well mean that .38+P is a better bet in a snub.
 
My pet loads in the 38 special +P+ / 38-44 HD / Med-Light 357 Magnum loads
Load in 357 magnum cases (if you want to keep them out of small frame revolvers)
Any 155 gr . to 170 gr. Cast Lead WC or SWC
6.0 grs. Unique - standard small pistol primer

For a little extra speed also try 6.5 grs Unique .

Gary
 
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curious if the case lenght makes much of a difference in terms of muzzle blast. I'd think the shorter case might get you more nrg/pressure with less powder, and might make a small difference, but - I'd want to load hearty loads in .357 brass, just cause they invented it so it would not find its way into a .38 Special, and things happen so - If it were me I'd just go with the .357 brass if I had it. I wouldn't want to give myself any chance to make that mistake.
 
I use 6 grains Unique in a .38 Special case with a 150 grain 358477 for around 1050 fps from my 4" S&W 686 over my old Chrony.
Sometimes 6.5 grains Unique in a .357 Mag case with the same bullet for around 1086 fps, same revolver and chrony.
I like both loads.
I never have a carbon ring problem but I clean after every shooting session. Brass brush or a patch of chore boy on a worn brush.
Over the years I've tried about every carbon cleaner I could find, everything works but nothing worked better than WD-40.
Rex
 
Either will work. For maximum reduction in muzzle blast at a given velocity, I recommend using 357 cases and to use the fastest powder that will get to your desired power level.

I have runs lots of Quickload (QL) cases to show that the faster the powder the more the muzzle pressure goes down even though the chamber pressure goes up.

Here is a sample of QL output for a Lee 158 with some common US pistol powders. As you can see, the lowest muzzle pressures are with Red Dot and TiteGroup. I have loaded thousands of rounds of mid range 357s loaded with these two.

Code:
Cartridge          : .357 Magnum (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .358, 158, LEE 358-158-RF
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.590 inch = 40.39 mm
Barrel Length      : 4.0 inch = 101.6 mm

C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Hodgdon HP38                        47.4      6.5     0.42    1000   100.0    27248    6682   0.493
Hodgdon TiteGroup                   46.5      6.2     0.40    1000   100.0    30360    6271   0.472  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant 2400                        75.6     11.7     0.76    1000    67.5    20842    9887   0.565
Hodgdon Longshot                    49.0      8.0     0.52    1000    96.5    22693    8442   0.536
Hodgdon HS-6                        51.4      8.3     0.54    1000    94.9    22590    8538   0.537
Alliant POWER PISTOL                60.3      7.8     0.51    1000    88.2    21283    9261   0.552
Alliant BLUE DOT                    76.5     10.2     0.66    1000    77.3    21361    9500   0.556
Hodgdon Universal                   60.6      6.3     0.41    1000   100.0    25632    7137   0.517
Alliant GREEN DOT                   66.1      6.0     0.39    1000   100.0    28509    6565   0.488
Alliant RED DOT                     69.8      5.7     0.37    1000   100.0    30471    6360   0.475  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant HERCO                       70.3      7.2     0.47    1000    98.9    22732    8420   0.546
Alliant BULLSEYE                    54.7      5.9     0.38    1000   100.0    23701    7685   0.520
Hodgdon Lil'Gun                     87.5     14.8     0.96    1000    61.5    19454   10794   0.571
Alliant UNIQUE                      62.8      6.6     0.43    1000   100.0    23318    7993   0.537
Hodgdon H4227                      100.7     15.0     0.97    1000    52.8    22121    9188   0.531
 
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And if you want to reduce recoil and muzzle blast, go with a lighter bullet. Here is QL for a 125 gr

Code:
Cartridge          : .357 Magnum (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .358, 125, LEE 358-125-RF
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.590 inch = 40.39 mm
Barrel Length      : 4.0 inch = 101.6 mm

C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Hodgdon Longshot                    43.8      8.2     0.53    1000    87.8    16866    8061   0.556
Hodgdon HS-6                        46.1      8.5     0.55    1000    85.5    16872    8088   0.555
Hodgdon H4227                       94.7     16.1     1.04    1000    43.0    17143    8045   0.540
Alliant HERCO                       62.7      7.3     0.47    1000    91.9    16834    8209   0.571
Alliant BLUE DOT                    70.5     10.6     0.69    1000    66.3    16450    8688   0.569
Alliant POWER PISTOL                54.7      8.0     0.52    1000    77.4    16220    8558   0.566
Hodgdon Lil'Gun                     83.8     16.1     1.05    1000    49.2    15667    9418   0.573
Alliant 2400                        70.7     12.4     0.81    1000    56.8    16162    8971   0.576
Hodgdon TiteGroup                   37.9      5.7     0.37    1000   100.0    20113    6095   0.510
Hodgdon HP38                        39.6      6.1     0.40    1000   100.0    18525    6703   0.529
Alliant UNIQUE                      55.2      6.6     0.43    1000    95.3    16995    7957   0.566
Alliant BULLSEYE                    47.4      5.8     0.38    1000    96.3    17121    7602   0.544
Hodgdon Clays                       56.6      5.0     0.32    1000   100.0    24242    5393   0.462
Hodgdon Universal                   51.7      6.1     0.40    1000    99.9    17844    7300   0.556
Alliant GREEN DOT                   54.5      5.6     0.37    1000   100.0    19204    6479   0.531
Alliant RED DOT                     56.6      5.2     0.34    1000   100.0    20266    6139   0.515
 
I like to be far more specific in how I define loads. Are we talking 18k or 20kpsi loads. I shoot a colt trooper so the weight and size of my revolver may be Vastly different than yours. In an air weight 38 I'm sure my 20kpsi 180grain loads are probably brutal. The pressure wave in loads are significant. A 35k load and a 20k load aren't even close. What are your primary considerations, time back on target, muzzle blast or recoil. You might not care about those and velocity for hp expansion might be a primary concern. My current load is 8.4 grains in a 357 case which is moderate, and way more tame than 13.7 grains of #9 which I use a lot. What I need at home, is not be what is needed on the trail.
 
And if you want to reduce recoil and muzzle blast, go with a lighter bullet. Here is QL for a 125 gr

Code:
Cartridge          : .357 Magnum (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .358, 125, LEE 358-125-RF
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.590 inch = 40.39 mm
Barrel Length      : 4.0 inch = 101.6 mm

C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Hodgdon Longshot                    43.8      8.2     0.53    1000    87.8    16866    8061   0.556
Hodgdon HS-6                        46.1      8.5     0.55    1000    85.5    16872    8088   0.555
Hodgdon H4227                       94.7     16.1     1.04    1000    43.0    17143    8045   0.540
Alliant HERCO                       62.7      7.3     0.47    1000    91.9    16834    8209   0.571
Alliant BLUE DOT                    70.5     10.6     0.69    1000    66.3    16450    8688   0.569
Alliant POWER PISTOL                54.7      8.0     0.52    1000    77.4    16220    8558   0.566
Hodgdon Lil'Gun                     83.8     16.1     1.05    1000    49.2    15667    9418   0.573
Alliant 2400                        70.7     12.4     0.81    1000    56.8    16162    8971   0.576
Hodgdon TiteGroup                   37.9      5.7     0.37    1000   100.0    20113    6095   0.510
Hodgdon HP38                        39.6      6.1     0.40    1000   100.0    18525    6703   0.529
Alliant UNIQUE                      55.2      6.6     0.43    1000    95.3    16995    7957   0.566
Alliant BULLSEYE                    47.4      5.8     0.38    1000    96.3    17121    7602   0.544
Hodgdon Clays                       56.6      5.0     0.32    1000   100.0    24242    5393   0.462
Hodgdon Universal                   51.7      6.1     0.40    1000    99.9    17844    7300   0.556
Alliant GREEN DOT                   54.5      5.6     0.37    1000   100.0    19204    6479   0.531
Alliant RED DOT                     56.6      5.2     0.34    1000   100.0    20266    6139   0.515
Check the optimal velocity range of a 125xtp vs a 140. The 140 and 158 are designed to work good at lower velocity so the intended bullet makes a big difference. In a short barrel the Speer 135 bullet might be the best option.
 
Depends partly on whether handloading is an option. I've gotten to dislike the chamber cleaning obligation that comes with shooting short brass in a long chamber, so rarely shoot .38s in a .357 Magnum. Even when I want very light loads in my .357, I put them up in .357 cases.
I look at it as one of the "joys" :barf: of shooting. It's not bad, if you clean the gun every time and have the right tools. A Lewis Lead Remover takes most of the work out of it, it will scrub the powder ring just as well as lead fouling. I've had this one since 1978. One piece for the forcing cone, another for the chambers The rubber washer swells when tightened, so it will get the chamber as well as the throat.
IMG_2022.jpg
 
If you're shooting factory ammo for targets or defense, you're probably limited to what sells at a reasonable price and what's available. If you're practice is to perform with a carry load, it makes sense to practice with something that has similar recoil. If you're trying to minimize the flash, blast, and gas while still obtaining effective velocity, penetration, and bullet expansion, this is where handloading for the revolver can be a great benefit. Whether you're loading your carry rounds or using factory, you can obtain a load that's achieves an objective standard for penetration and expansion, like that of the FBI, with your revolver's barrel length. To match this load's recoil and point of impact with an inexpensive bullet, will take some crafting of the recipe on the loading bench.

In my experience, I found it difficult to obtain my weight/velocity goals from short barrels (3" or 2") with maximum pressures within the SAAMI spec for 38+P. It takes a slower burning powder which results in less consistent combustion prior to the exit of the bullet base from the muzzle. SD's and ES's suffer. What's more, the muzzle pressure is higher than loads that use a faster burning powder with a higher peak pressure. It just wasn't worth working within this arbitrary limit.

To limit flash and blast, lower the muzzle pressure. The best way to lower the muzzle pressure is to use a longer barrel. But if the barrel is a given length, a faster powder can be used to have lower muzzle pressures at the same velocity as slower powders. The faster powder will produce a higher peak pressure to deliver the same velocity as the slow powder, but the muzzle pressure can be lower.

Recoil for a given gun is mostly a function of bullet velocity. If the bullet exits the muzzle at 1000 fps, the recoil won't be different whether this velocity was attained with a slow powder or a fast powder. The difference in muzzle pressure will be noticeable, especially in report (sound pressure level), but the recoil is mostly a result of the bullet weight and velocity and the reaction in the mass of the revolver. It's not slow vs. fast powders that make the difference between a slow "push" and a fast "snap" in the felt recoil. What I've found makes this difference is the mass of the revolver vs. the mass and velocity of the bullet. The more mass and velocity in the bullet, the more it's going to accelerate a given revolver. A lot of acceleration in the revolver (12 oz. 340 PD being pushed by 140 grains exiting at 1350fps) generates sharp pain. A 35 oz. 2.5" L-frame accelerated by a 158 grains exiting at 1100 fps produces more recoil than a pansy likes, but is otherwise reasonable. Put a 6" barrel on that L-frame and reduce the charge so the bullet still exits at 1100 fps and the recoil will be the same, but the additional 11 ounces of gun slows the acceleration of the gun considerably and the "felt recoil" is lower. The muzzle pressure will also be lower and it will seem to be a pussy load.

Light bullets will lower the recoil, but the penetration will be decreased for a given velocity. Because sufficient penetration matters for most meaningful purposes, we can consider what will meet our penetration goal with the least amount of recoil. In my experience, it is the heavier bullets. Theoretically, we know lighter bullets will require higher velocities to achieve similar penetration to heavier ones, notwithstanding differences in terminal expansion etc. Not only is higher velocity required from light bullets to achieve similar force, but light bullets of a given velocity also have a lower sectional density. This means they'll need even greater additional velocity over a heavier bullet to achieve goal penetration. To accelerate lighter bullets to sufficient velocities requires accelerating a greater powder mass. That acceleration of powder mass generates recoil that does not contribute to terminal performance -- it exits as gas.

While "slow and heavy" seem to be the best way to achieve penetration goals, we should also have an expansion goal. Given bullet materials and design, this is going to take a given minimum terminal velocity. This is why 180 grain bullets are not the most popular for 357.

Heavy revolver, long-barrel, fast powder, and optimal bullet mass, sectional density, and suitable materials and design for expansion -- these are the recipe for good terminal performance with a minimum of recoil, flash, blast, and gas. Any of them can be compromised for the available trade-off's. Compromising any one of these variables may require compromising some of the others to achieve terminal ballistic goals, but compromising one variable will not reverse any of these characteristic's optimality.
 
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I look at it as one of the "joys" :barf: of shooting. It's not bad, if you clean the gun every time and have the right tools. A Lewis Lead Remover takes most of the work out of it, it will scrub the powder ring just as well as lead fouling. I've had this one since 1978. One piece for the forcing cone, another for the chambers The rubber washer swells when tightened, so it will get the chamber as well as the throat.
View attachment 1092204

Sure.

Or I could just stick with .357 brass. :neener:
 
If you have a short barreled 357 revolver (4" or less) and for most shooting you wish to keep muzzle blast and recoil more manageable would you shoot lighter 357 loads or 38+p loads. Assume you are able to load your own if necessary.

IMHO, only real difference between a light .357 and a.38+p is the case. If I was(and I do) reloading for a .357 revolver , and was in your scenario, I would just stick with powder puff .357s. You avoid the crud ring form the shorter .38 cases and you only need one caliber of brass.
 
Way back before the 357 was introduced there were lots of guys loading 38's to come very close to what 357 mag eventually would do when it was introduced. They even made factory loaded 38 ammo loaded to those specs, but they were supposed to only be used in the large framed revolvers. They were designed 38/44 and came with a warning not to use them in small or medium framed 38's. But people are what they are, and some smaller guns came apart with the ammo.

This prompted the 357 mag ammo and revolvers. Performance wasn't that much different, but the slightly longer 357 case wouldn't chamber in 38's.

Before our local city PD changed to semi's they were issued 4" Smith 65's. Although chambered in 357, our city commission was uncomfortable with officers carrying a "magnum" cartridge. So, the police chief contracted with an ammo maker to sell them 38 +p+ ammo. It was essentially 357 mag, but in a 38 case. Everybody was happy.
 
I prefer light .357's so I don't have to scrub the ring out nor worry about getting that round put into something I shouldn't be putting it in, which could happen with a 38 +p+. No SAAMI spec for +p+ so I would go lightly there.
 
My general 357 Magnum shooting ammunition is 158 gr SWC loaded to 950-1000 fps in 357 Mag cases in a 4” revolver.

The powder I use is usually Unque but other similar powders would work.

They are pleasant to shoot in 3” Model 60. Not like the palm hitting 38 Special +P in a J-frame Airweight.

I prefer to use 357 Mag cases in 357 Mag revolvers but it is not necessary. I have a number of 38 Special revolvers so I save the 38 Special cases for them.
 
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