.38 S&W ALBION vs .357 SIG caliber SIG 229R DAK!
The above is not a joke, just so you know. I went to the range today with a:
1. ALBION Motors Corporation of Scottland No.2 Mk 1** revolver.
2. SIG 229R pistol with DAK trigger, chambered in .357 SIG.
I picked up both of these guns and had not been to the range with the ALBION and only fired 16 rounds through the SIG.
The ALBION is a top-break open, 6 shot, double action only revolver made for the BRITISH military during World War II. It is basically a knock-off of the British ENFIELD revolver made from post WW I till WW II.
It is double action only and was one of two break top .38 S&W revolvers in a local gun shop after they bought a estate sale of guns. The other was a double action/single action WEBLEY & SCOTT 6 shot, also in .38 S&W, also with a 5 inch barrel like the ALBION.
I went with the ALBION because it had the smoother, but still heavy double action trigger.
During WW II, ALBION was contracted to make the these revolvers as the British did not have the gun makers or military facilities to make enough of them. I have read that about 24,000 were made.
2. SIG 229R in .357 SIG with the DAK trigger. The “R” means that the gun has a light/laser rail underneath the barrel and the DAK stands for Double Action Kellerman. It is a double action only semi-auto without the usual SIG thumb activated de-cocker on the left side of the grip.
Both guns had fixed sights.
I fired 50 round each in 2 different but similar drills. The first was a 20 round drill starting at 10 yards for the ALBION with 6 shots fired as double taps, then 4 shots at 7 yards one to the center mass and one to the head followed by two to the center mass and one to the head. Finally at 5 yards, I fired two shots strong hand only and two shots weak hand only.
I then fired a 30 round drill starting a 15 yards with six round, then at 7 yards, 6 rounds fired as double tap, followed by the three shot failure to stop drill with two to center mass and one to the head and finally six shots strong hand and then six shots weak hand at 5 yards.
The above 30 shot drill is a close to duplicating the 30 shot drill my agency used before we switched to the GLOCK I have shot it for 15 years straight, so it gives me a good baseline to compare different guns and ammo.
With the SIG, I did it a little differently, I shot a 25 round drill (one round less in each of the five stages), starting out a 15 yards, then 7 and finally five.
I then did a longer range, 22 yard drill with first stage at 22 yards (the lane I shot from does not go to 25 yards, then 15 yards for the second stage, 10 for the third with the single hand drills at 7 yards.
Although not exactly the same, I was able to draw some conclusions.
1. The BRITS were really desperate. I found that despite the mild recoil, the gun was much harder to shoot than the SIG 229 or my S&W model 15 which is one of my favorite range guns. In fact, I found it less pleasant to shoot than the SIG which had the louder, harder recoiling ammo.
The grip is too wide on the ALBION, even with a thumb cut out and rides up against the web of my hand in a way, that is mildly painful.
2. The double action only trigger was smooth, but heavy, especially in comparison to the SIG with the DAK trigger, which felt at least 4 or 5 pounds lighter. The heaviness offset the smoothness of the trigger to a degree.
3. The break top release is long and heavy, so it was slow for me to open. That might improve with practice, but I am not sure how much. To get good leverage on the release lever, you have to rotate the gun up in your hand, unlike a S&W revolver, wear you just push against the release lever with your thump.
Once opened, you need to strongly push down on the barrel all the way and the rounds will be ejected cleanly.
Compared to my former issue revolver, a S&W model 13, the ALBION was not really faster to reload by hand and much slower than my model 15 when using speed-loaders.
4. The .38 S&W rounds spread out more than the .357 SIG rounds. I kept all the rounds in the silhouette target torso area, but many more rounds were outside the 10 ring.
This is despite the much stronger recoil of the SIG rounds.
With the SIG, things went smoother.I was comfortable with shooting out to the 22 yard line. I would not have wanted to shoot that far with the ALBION. Both guns had good, easily seen sights
The SIG is a modern design and still suitable for carry or law enforcement work. It is compact enough and light enough for all day carry concealed and with a 12 round magazine and 1 reload, should handle any bad situation.
The ALBION would be a very poor choice for self defense, in my opinion.
The .357 SIG has a limited selection of ammo, but nearly all of it is effective judging by the results I see at the LUCKY GUNNER AMMO TEST SITE.
Not so for the .38 S&W which was called the .380 revolver or .38/200 by the British. BUFFALO BORE makes a high velocity 125 grain semi wadcutter loading, but it is a NON-EXPANDING load and may not be safe in a break top gun.
Ammo for either caliber is hard to find, but SIG .357 is more common based on my visits to local gun shops. At least one shop had some .357 SIG ammo, none had .38 S&W.
Both of these calibers are probably on their way to obsolescence.
The .38 S&W is not chambered in any gun made in AMERICA anymore, but may still be made in INDIA.
It does not do anything better than the .38 Special, is harder to find and does not have any good defensive ammo choices, unlike the .38 Special.
The .357 SIG was an attempt to produce a semi auto equivalent, but caught on with only a limited number of agencies.
The .40 S&W had already taken the law enforcement world by storm and now that they are going back to the milder kicking, but still effective 9x19m.m. round, the SIG seems to be without a purpose.
Another problem, comparing 9m.m. +P and +P+ ammo to .357 SIG rounds finds only about 100 to 150 feet per second improvement with an equal jump in recoil and a reduction in magazine capacity.
I think the .357 SIG is a good round and the .357 SIG in the SIG 229 a good combination, but the low price I paid for this excellent gun, under $300.00, leads me to think it has a limited future.
If you agree or disagree with my observations, let me know and please give your reasons.
Jim
The above is not a joke, just so you know. I went to the range today with a:
1. ALBION Motors Corporation of Scottland No.2 Mk 1** revolver.
2. SIG 229R pistol with DAK trigger, chambered in .357 SIG.
I picked up both of these guns and had not been to the range with the ALBION and only fired 16 rounds through the SIG.
The ALBION is a top-break open, 6 shot, double action only revolver made for the BRITISH military during World War II. It is basically a knock-off of the British ENFIELD revolver made from post WW I till WW II.
It is double action only and was one of two break top .38 S&W revolvers in a local gun shop after they bought a estate sale of guns. The other was a double action/single action WEBLEY & SCOTT 6 shot, also in .38 S&W, also with a 5 inch barrel like the ALBION.
I went with the ALBION because it had the smoother, but still heavy double action trigger.
During WW II, ALBION was contracted to make the these revolvers as the British did not have the gun makers or military facilities to make enough of them. I have read that about 24,000 were made.
2. SIG 229R in .357 SIG with the DAK trigger. The “R” means that the gun has a light/laser rail underneath the barrel and the DAK stands for Double Action Kellerman. It is a double action only semi-auto without the usual SIG thumb activated de-cocker on the left side of the grip.
Both guns had fixed sights.
I fired 50 round each in 2 different but similar drills. The first was a 20 round drill starting at 10 yards for the ALBION with 6 shots fired as double taps, then 4 shots at 7 yards one to the center mass and one to the head followed by two to the center mass and one to the head. Finally at 5 yards, I fired two shots strong hand only and two shots weak hand only.
I then fired a 30 round drill starting a 15 yards with six round, then at 7 yards, 6 rounds fired as double tap, followed by the three shot failure to stop drill with two to center mass and one to the head and finally six shots strong hand and then six shots weak hand at 5 yards.
The above 30 shot drill is a close to duplicating the 30 shot drill my agency used before we switched to the GLOCK I have shot it for 15 years straight, so it gives me a good baseline to compare different guns and ammo.
With the SIG, I did it a little differently, I shot a 25 round drill (one round less in each of the five stages), starting out a 15 yards, then 7 and finally five.
I then did a longer range, 22 yard drill with first stage at 22 yards (the lane I shot from does not go to 25 yards, then 15 yards for the second stage, 10 for the third with the single hand drills at 7 yards.
Although not exactly the same, I was able to draw some conclusions.
1. The BRITS were really desperate. I found that despite the mild recoil, the gun was much harder to shoot than the SIG 229 or my S&W model 15 which is one of my favorite range guns. In fact, I found it less pleasant to shoot than the SIG which had the louder, harder recoiling ammo.
The grip is too wide on the ALBION, even with a thumb cut out and rides up against the web of my hand in a way, that is mildly painful.
2. The double action only trigger was smooth, but heavy, especially in comparison to the SIG with the DAK trigger, which felt at least 4 or 5 pounds lighter. The heaviness offset the smoothness of the trigger to a degree.
3. The break top release is long and heavy, so it was slow for me to open. That might improve with practice, but I am not sure how much. To get good leverage on the release lever, you have to rotate the gun up in your hand, unlike a S&W revolver, wear you just push against the release lever with your thump.
Once opened, you need to strongly push down on the barrel all the way and the rounds will be ejected cleanly.
Compared to my former issue revolver, a S&W model 13, the ALBION was not really faster to reload by hand and much slower than my model 15 when using speed-loaders.
4. The .38 S&W rounds spread out more than the .357 SIG rounds. I kept all the rounds in the silhouette target torso area, but many more rounds were outside the 10 ring.
This is despite the much stronger recoil of the SIG rounds.
With the SIG, things went smoother.I was comfortable with shooting out to the 22 yard line. I would not have wanted to shoot that far with the ALBION. Both guns had good, easily seen sights
The SIG is a modern design and still suitable for carry or law enforcement work. It is compact enough and light enough for all day carry concealed and with a 12 round magazine and 1 reload, should handle any bad situation.
The ALBION would be a very poor choice for self defense, in my opinion.
The .357 SIG has a limited selection of ammo, but nearly all of it is effective judging by the results I see at the LUCKY GUNNER AMMO TEST SITE.
Not so for the .38 S&W which was called the .380 revolver or .38/200 by the British. BUFFALO BORE makes a high velocity 125 grain semi wadcutter loading, but it is a NON-EXPANDING load and may not be safe in a break top gun.
Ammo for either caliber is hard to find, but SIG .357 is more common based on my visits to local gun shops. At least one shop had some .357 SIG ammo, none had .38 S&W.
Both of these calibers are probably on their way to obsolescence.
The .38 S&W is not chambered in any gun made in AMERICA anymore, but may still be made in INDIA.
It does not do anything better than the .38 Special, is harder to find and does not have any good defensive ammo choices, unlike the .38 Special.
The .357 SIG was an attempt to produce a semi auto equivalent, but caught on with only a limited number of agencies.
The .40 S&W had already taken the law enforcement world by storm and now that they are going back to the milder kicking, but still effective 9x19m.m. round, the SIG seems to be without a purpose.
Another problem, comparing 9m.m. +P and +P+ ammo to .357 SIG rounds finds only about 100 to 150 feet per second improvement with an equal jump in recoil and a reduction in magazine capacity.
I think the .357 SIG is a good round and the .357 SIG in the SIG 229 a good combination, but the low price I paid for this excellent gun, under $300.00, leads me to think it has a limited future.
If you agree or disagree with my observations, let me know and please give your reasons.
Jim
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