.357 Sig....38 Super and now the .45 GAP? Stayers or Trends?

[orangeninja]

Is the .357 Sig REALLY comparable to the .357 Magnum?

Is the .45 GAP REALLY the the modern equal to the .45 ACP?

Does ANYONE still shoot the .41 AE or the .38 Super?

I bought a .45 ACP today....(applause) yes thank...thank you....and I got to thinking on my way home about my Dad....who was in law enforcement for 14 long years....and about all the guns he had that I saw as a kid. As a uniformed officer he carried a Smith & Wesson Model 66 .357 Manum which was status quo of the day. Then he goes plain clothes and buys a .38 special Colt Detective Special. Also status quo....THEN he goes out and buys a Charter Arms Bulldog in .44 Special after a couple of close calls and the anemic reputation the .38 snubbie seemed to be earning at the time. Finally he gets approved to carry an auto....he wanted the "stopping power" of his model 66 so he carried a 1911 .38 Super....which I guess was the 1980's version of the .357 Sig. Well after that he discovered the .41 AE which preceeded the modern day .40 S&W.....all this to say.....

the .38 Super is a fantastic and slick round...but it died off due to lack of LE sales and the FBI showed little to no interest in it.

the .44 Special is still viable, but much less popular now than in the 80's again, lack luster LE sales.

the .41AE, everybit the .40 S&W that the modern day .40 S&W is, YET, due to the FBI acceptance of the .40 S&W a slew of LE agencies quickly bought into them, after all, the FBI knows best.....and the .41 fades into the misty fog of time.

Now I know that some agencies (State and local mostly, oh and the Treasury guys) have gone to the .357 Sig...so I think that in 10 to 20 years we will still see this round, albiet not as commonly as the 9mm and .40 S&W. We wil still see the .357 Magnum, after all, like a great cut of steak, it's thick, it's juicy and it performs best on open flame. An American classic. The .38 Special will stay alive due to it's interchangability with the .357 Mag.

However.....the .45 ACP is now being challenged by the .45 GAP....I have not heard of any large government buys for the GAP yet, and I really don't predict any. Anyone here other than me predicting this particular rounds eventual failure?

I can sit here and look at my Dad's pistols and think, "man, you can really only find a ready supply of ammo for 2 or at best 3 of these if you don't mind spending $20.00 for the .44 specials".


Sorry.....attack of nostalgia....my dad was a "latest and greatest" kind of shooter. I tend to be much more practical.

What are your thoughts?

 

[ducktapehero]

I hope the new calibers catch on because I'm tired of the 9MM vs 45 debate. Of course in the last few years we have also added the 40 to split the two camps. We also have the 357 vs 10MM debate that is beginning to heat up. The more the merrier.

 

[cratz2]

The 38 Super is a fine cartridge that has been around for many years. It is obviously a 'stayer' or else it would have disappeared years ago. The 9x23 is the continuation of the 38 Super which seems to be a passe trend outside of competition circles which is unfortunate.

The 357 SIG seems to have caught on with many highway patrol divisions where autobody penetration is a primary concern.

The 45GAP doesn't seem to be catching on as quickly as the 40S&W or the 357SIG though I can see some use for it. I'd love to have either a CZ PCR or P-01 chambered in 45GAP. I'd also get a Kahr TP9 sized gun chambered in 45GAP.

 

[surfinUSA]

The 38 super is the grand dad of them all and was developed in the early part of the 1900's to defeat the available body armor of the time and penetrate auto bodys.

The cops liked revolvers better, but a good round never dies it just fades into semi obscurety like the 41 mag and the 10mm auto. All have periodic resurgences in popularity then fade into the background again.

The 38 super became real popular in competition during the 70s in the 1911 platform and many a gun was KBed trying to load the cartridge to major class, but that is a discussion for someone else that took part in those games and actually loaded the cartridge.

The 41 action express never went anywhere partially because its rebated rim was thought to be less reliable. Of course that didn't stop Glock from loading the 45 GAP with a rebated rim. I think this round is only going to make money for Glock in foreign countries that don't permit the ownership of military calibers and ban the 45 acp.

 

[Standing Wolf]

I'm holding out for the arrival of the .417 Super Duper.

 

[Ankeny]

Of course .38 Super is still the Open IPSC cartridge. With the new power factor, no fear of "super face" from the flying shards of blown cases. In fact, Corbon offers some pretty hot Super loads that would make a 1911 in Super rock as a self defense gun.

I think the .45 GAP will be around for a long time. The model 21 in .45 ACP was just too fat to suit a lot of folks. Now that Glock has the GAP, people can shoot a .45 in the smaller frame.

Oh, and yes the GAP is ballistically equal too or superior to the .45 ACP.

 

[Wanderer]

.357 Sig - Stayer. Nearly twice (sometimes nearly thrice) the capacity of most revolvers, in a package with less recoil. Same or better ballistics.

.38 Super has already been proven to be a Stayer in competitive shooting.

.45 GAP - Not a Stayer. Most people who wanted large caliber, but something that would fit their hands already went to the .40. Came a little late.

 

[David4516]

I am suprised that .38 super has not become more popular...

Seems to me like it's the same idea as .357 sig (faster 9mm), but in a thinner case (thinner comapred to .357 sig that is) so you can fit more in the same size mag. Seems very logical. I bet it would make a great round for concealed carry...

So why aren't gun makers like Glock making pistols in .38 super? I don't get it...

 

[Jeff Timm]

David 4516 asked: "So why aren't gun makes like Glock making pistols in .38 super? I don't get it..."

The Super has a market in SA because it isn't a military round.

Most of the M1911 Clone makers ignore the round.

It requires a slightly more expensive magazine, has a reputation for poor accuracy and ammo isn't nearly as available as .40 S&W.

I have been told barrel makers are reluctant to produce barrels because of liability. With more modern powders, the .38 Super can be overloaded with the usual kB! results.

Geoff
Who regrets not buying a Colt Commander in .38 Super, many moons agone.

 

[Oracle]

I think the "fitting in your hands" thing only applies to the .45 ACP Glocks. Most of those that wanted a .45 but whose hands the Glocks didn't fit well went with a 1911 years ago. The .45 GAP seems to be a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist. Of course, solving a problem that doesn't exist hasn't stopped firearms/ammunition makers before, and some of them have made quite a lot of money doing so .

 

[grendelbane]

Well, it looks like things are backwards in the big cities! Here in the country you are more likely to have problems because you chose to use tht fancy store bought ammunition.

The prosecuting attorney is likely to make such statements as, "No, an 158 grain cast SWC over 15 grains of 2400 was not good enough for the defendant to use. It was good enough for his father, and his father before him, but the defendant had to buy fancy store bought ammunition!"

Sorry! Not sure how this post got here, as it was obviously intended for another thread.

Anyway, yes, the .38 Super has survived 75 years. It will survive 75 more, if cartridge firearms do.

Amazing how many people do not even know of its existence, though.

 

[JohnBT]

The Colt employee who posts on 1911Forum recently mentioned the possibility of a lightweight Commander next year in .38 Super (or Super .38 for the old guys)

John

 

[Delmar]

The alleged inaccuracies of the 38 Super Auto went away years ago. Even Colt learned to headspace the round on the case mouth instead of that itty bitty rim a while back. A friend of mine bought a stainless 1911 in that caliber last year, and got a winner.

If you have an older Colt, try one of the new Colt barrels or Bar-Sto.

 

[orangeninja]

My Dad's Colt .38 Super 1911 is a freakin tack driver....and it's the only one I've shot. I have seen Wal Mart carry Winchester ammo for it, between 17 and 23 bucks a box of 50 though.

*BANG*

.52 cents


*BANG*

$1.03

*BANG*

$1.56

*BANG*

$2.08 and so on.....get's pricey.

 

[Delmar]

Not if you roll yer own

 

[Harold Mayo]

If you look around, you can pick up .38 Super ball for plinking for $7.00/box or so. When I had a Kimber Pro Carry HD II in .38 Super, I bought a case of the stuff. Pretty good ammo. Finding a good defensive loading was more difficult and I had to go to Georgia Arms (IIRC, anyway) for some hotter-loaded hollow-points.

 

[TonyB]

I'm always weary of new calibers...of course I thought the 40 would die out,so what do I know?
But I don't hold much hope for the GAP....we'll see.....
I like the idea of the 357 sig....but unless you reload,you're stuck with full house loads.....in my 357 mags I always like to shoot 38's...

 

[mrapathy2000]

357sig is not really catching on if it is, its slow. another wonder9 cartridge just what the world needed. its funny reading the hype on it. it does not match up to 357magnum. matches to light 357 loads. 357sig is actually 355. wish they would of gone true 357 cause I could use it to hunt then though would be poor choice.

357sig could become popular in subcompacts over 40S&W. though bet they came out with 115gr/124-5gr bullets in 40S&W, 357sig would die out more. havent seen 40S&W FMJ vs JHP comparison against 357sig. bet 357sig would penetrate more in most area's. hole size would not be one of them.

how many wonder 9 calibers do we have now 20+? someone came out with 10mm knecked down to .355 beats the hell out of 357sig.

45gap its new some people are venturing to it.
not crazy bout it think I would rather have 45acp. 45acp has alot of classical value to it. 9mm luger/parabellum does to. both 90+ years old each.

though fitting a 45 cartridge into a 9mm sized pistol without enlarging the frame has potential imo.

wish 41AE was still around commercially.

 

[TaxPhd]

"The 38 super became real popular in competition during the 70s in the 1911 platform and many a gun was KBed trying to load the cartridge to major class, but that is a discussion for someone else that took part in those games and actually loaded the cartridge."

Actually, it was the '80's. Rob Leatham was looking for more mag capacity, and more gas pressure to drive the comp. Early experiments lead to a number of occasions of "Super Face." Ramped, fully supported barrels and safe and sane loading techniques have virtually made "Super Face" a non-occurance.

.38 super (or .38 Supercomp, a non-tapered version, virtually identical dimensionally to 9x23) still rules IPSC open class competition, and it is a great round for IDPA ESP division.

The next gun I have built will be a 5" Govmnt. model, stainless in .38 Supercomp. Perfect for IDPA and carry (Yes, I will roll my own carry ammo. Lack of factory .38 Supercomp ammo will make it a necessity).



Scott

 

[Black Snowman]

If we can keep the AWB from coming back or marching on I think .38 Super will gain in popularity as it would make for a nice thin double stack package with a LOT of ammo on tap with more power than a stock 9mm fitting in guns with just a slightly longer (front to rear) grip.

Is .38 Super the same as 9x21? If so CZ is already geared up to produce it in their 85 model and may start importing it if they percieve a demand in the states.

 

[TaxPhd]

Nope, 9x23.



Scott

 

[Boats]

The word everyone is searching for to describe these Johnny Come Lately niche rounds is fad.

 

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's All-

I must admit, there are some pretty impressive statements thus
far. As to why the .38 Super nor the .41 Magnum never quite
caught on in law enforcement circles, I can't. Both, were good
well designed rounds that had plenty of mv and knock down
power. And, yes by todays standards the cost of a box of 50
factory rounds will set you back a bundle.

But, the .38 Super and the .41 Magnum continue to enjoy some
success among handloader's, and target shooters. Heck, I know
a friend of mine who just shot his Colt .38 Super a few days ago.
I can address the .41 Magnum issue, I think. Delivering about
75% of the recoil and muzzle blast of the .44; most shooters
didn't see it as being much of a difference betwee a HOT 125
grain .357 Magnum JHP, and a 240 grain .44 Magnum JHP; so
they never opted to purchase weapons designed for the .41
caliber. OTOH, the .38 Super was rated real close to the stats
of the .357; but in a self-loading pistol; when everyone was
in a revolver state of mine, as being the most powerful handgun
available.

In closing, both the .38 Super and the .41 Magnum are great
and adequate calibers; and should never be over looked.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

 

[David4516]

Black Snowman,

...I think .38 Super will gain in popularity as it would make for a nice thin double stack package with a LOT of ammo on tap with more power than a stock 9mm...

Thats exactly what I think, and thats what I was trying to get at in my post before...

But I'm not sure if gunmakers will want to run the risk of making these new pistols, because they might not sell due to the "odd" caliber :banghead:

I wish they'd make guns that make sense (like this .38 super idea) instead of wasting time on things like the .45 GAP... but they'll keep doing it as long as we gun buyers are dumb enough to buy into the latest fads...

Is .38 Super the same as 9x21?

No, someone already said 9X23, and they are right, the .38 super is "9X23", as far as dimensions go. But there is another caliber called 9X23 that works at a higher pressure, so be careful not to get them mixed up

You might blow up your .38 super pistol if you shoot 9X23 ammo in it...

Edit:

There is also another round that looks (on the outside) very similar to 9X23 or .38 Super: 9mm Largo. The Largo is a lower pressure round than the .38 Super, it's really not a big improvement of 9mm Luger. Thats probably why it didn't catch on...

But I kinda like 9mm Largo. I've got a Star Model "A" in 9mm Largo and it's fun to shoot...

 

[Marshall]

Personally, I think the .45 gap is a stayer and is going to more of a force to dealt with than we think. You'll have Springfield, Glock and others selling hardware for them in non-1911 style guns, that's a lot of sales!

I predict they will command a good share of the 45 caliber market within just a few years and will take some of the 40S&W sales as well.