.357 Sig....38 Super and now the .45 GAP? Stayers or Trends?

[goon]

Lots of rounds come and go as the years go by.
Look at the .45LC, 44 Colt, 38 Colt, and .44-40. These are the rounds that were popular over 100 years ago. They sort of faded into obscurity (except the .45 LC, which still lost popularity), but they are now firmly entrenched in the niche of Cowboy action shooting. The 38 super is an old round that could still be one hell of a smoker in a defensive gun today. The .357 Sig offers defensive .357 mag revolver power in an automatic handgun, which IMO rocks.
I do think that the .45GAP sucks though. Glock should have built a single stack .45 ACP instead.

 

[Curare]

"Glock should have built a single stack .45 ACP instead."

Agreed.

Perhaps a larger version of the Slimline G36 (which takes a slightly staggered mag FWI)?

 

[goon]

Perhaps a larger version of the Slimline G36 (which takes a slightly staggered mag FWI)?

Exactly. About the size of a G19 would be just about right.

 

[jeff-10]

Niche market ammunition companies , the internet, ease and low cost of manufacture and lots of firearms made in different calibers have basically made it easier for more people to shoot and experiment with the less popular caliber cartidges. Its not like it was even 10 years ago where a certain caliber had to have a huge following, lots of ammunition offerings by the big 3 and so on, to survive. Sure the 38 Special, 9mm, 357 Magnum, 40S&W and 45 ACP will probably remain the most popular for the forseeable furture, but the less popular ones will still be around and even viable for self defense purposes.

 

[355sigfan]

I have tried almost everything. I started with the 40 sw loved it till a few blew on me. Then I tried the 357 sig. Not a bad round but then Winchester came out with the +p+ 127 grain Ranger load that was almost as fast and at the same time they introduced those 100 round value packs that made reloading the 357 sig seem pointless. Then as a firearms instructor I rediscovered the 1911. I even carried a snub 357 mag for a time and the 10 mm in a Glock 20. I have come to the conclusion I like the 1911 as a full size weapon. For times when I need a compact gun my 26 serves nicely. If I need something really small my Smith 442 in 38 special comes out. I have found that there is not much difference in stopping power between the best 9mm, 40sw, 357 sig, 10mm and 45 acp is not all that great. I also have observed that guns chambered in 9mm and 45 acp seem to run more reliably than guns chambered in 40sw,357 sig and 10mm. I believe its because 357 sigs and 40sw were re chambered 9mm's and 10mms were re chambered 45 acp's. I have a DOJ report on various pistols. The report showed that over 85% of the 9mm and 45 acp guns tested passed their tests. Only 60% of the 40sw and 357 sig guns passed. Reliability means more to me than an extra hundred feet per second or an extra .05 or an inch.
Pat

 

[fastbolt]

I've always thought the .38 Super was an overlooked cartridge, at least by mainstream handgun afficionados ... and the ammunition companies. I'm glad to see it making a comeback.

10mm appears to be enjoying a small return of interest, but it does seem to require a more experienced hand to properly control it and put it through its paces ...

Ditto for the .41 Magnum, except that it hasn't seemed to enjoy the same minor resurgence of interest. More's the pity ... I used to enjoy some backcountry long range shooting with a nicely balanced 3-screw Ruger chambered in this caliber when I was younger.

The think the 357SIG is a bit over-hyped for what it is ... and the much repeated anecdotal "proof" of its superiority in "stopping power" and auto body "penetration" has sort of masked the same on again-off again success/failure regarding "stopping power" as the other popular calibers have always enjoyed. It is a bit harder on some platforms, though, and the cost of quality duty-grade ammunition from the major manufacturers isn't one of its more attractive attributes. It seems to "work", but not with the smoke, thunder and fire that its die hard fans would like to so fervently believe.

By the way, I always thought that the 4" barreled .357 magnum was a compromise when it came to this venerable caliber, and that it was best typified by a 5 1/2"-6 1/2" barreled revolver when it came right down to it ... at least as far as controllability and maximizing the performance of the older ammunition. Just my opinion ... and I really did have reasonable confidence when carrying my M66 & M686, which I was issued at different times, as well as my snub nosed Magnums. I just thought the longer barrels made for a better use of the caliber, all things considered.

9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP have pretty much "proven" their staying power, so to speak, when it comes to L/E & non-L/E personal defensive calibers. Of course, the ammunition makers have helped this along with vast improvements in bullet designs and powder technologies.

I might have to revise my previous opinion regarding .45 G.A.P., now that at least Winchester has somehow redesigned the case to allow for the use of 230gr bullets. After all, what's the difference between a 230gr T-Series .45 bullet traveling 885fps fired from a .45 ACP case, versus the same bullet traveling at the same velocity fired from a .45 G.A.P. case? Of course, I'm one of those apparently dwindling number of folks that feel the 185gr & 200gr .45 bullets aren't as useful overall as the 230gr bullets, and I'm less and less enthused about +P pressures in .45 pistols as time goes by ...

The G.A.P. may indeed attract some increasing interest among the folks who just can't wrap their hands, or minds, around the larger framed pistol platforms which use double column maagzines ... or who, for whatever reason, aren't interested in any version of a 1911 platform. That doesn't really bother me ... live & let live. I find I can relatively easily use the current crop of compact & subcompact .45 ACP pistols available in the marketplace ... and I don't begrudge anyone else from taking advantage of the slightly smaller framed pistols starting to emerge, based around the slightly smaller dimensioned G.A.P. case.

I do think the 9mm and .40 S&W are going to remain the leading calibers, though, for a number of reasons ... followed closely by the .45 ACP ... 357SIG/.45 G.A.P. ... and perhaps the 10mm closing the GAP (intentional pun, I'm afraid) ... ... And, I'd like to see the .38 Super advance into this horse race once again, especially if the platform bears the Colt Pony on the side.

I do think that continuing advances in technology will throw us all some curves, though ...

 

[Marshall]

I predict the Gap becoming a cartridge of the future. I predict the 10mm going by the wayside from firearm manufacturers for all practical purposes. I predict the 41 mag staying right where it is or falling, with 357 power and 44 mag, there really is no reason to have a 41 mag. The 9mm and 40 S&W becoming even more popular than they are today. I predict the 45 acp staying forever but loosing sales to the .45 Gap and .40 S&W. The .357 Sig is the only one I feel uncertain about. I would guess it will always stay though loose sales except for LE.

Just my opinions and guesses.

 

[JiminCA]

Lots of good observations here.

My observation is that the success of the 45 GAP will depend on manufacturers other than Glock picking it up. Since it uses a shorter action (same as 9mm and 40 S&W), there are a lot of guns out there that could be adapted. If you're buying a gun and the same frame size gives you a 9mm, 40SW, and 45 GAP, whatcha gonna buy? I think it will be a real serious option.


So I think 45 GAP could go places once (if) manufacturers step up the adoption rate. CCW holders will be quite tempted.

I think 38 super is poised for a bit of a revival now that CorBon and a few others are actually making SD rounds that have some sizzle. Almost all of the commercial stuff recently has had nothing better than 9mm +P velocities - hardly a reason to get excited. Reloaders have always loved it - plenty of pop and 9mm conponents are cheap and plentiful. If you like a 1911 it is a potent package - 1350 fps from a 125 gr projectile. But the round is based on a 1.250 OAL that is 1911 friendly and demands a longer action than most mfgs are willing to base new development on. So that will limit it in the future as most "modern" actions are based on the 1.1xx length cartridges. Still, heavy IPSC use dictates it will be around for a while.

FWIW I have 1911's in 45ACP, 10mm, 357 sig, 40S&W, and 38 super. The 40 S&W and 357 sig are the most problematic, and I'm sure it is because of the shorter cartridge. All I have to do is long load the cartridges (over spec max) and they run like champs.

I think 357 sig can only go so far. The reason is that it isn't very versatile wrt its ballistic sweet spot. It is optimum with a 124 gr projectile. The heavier stuff and lighter stuff aren't that great in it IMO. As such it will probably stay a LE round. It is a pain to reload (I have two guns in it and I reload 'em). My other observation with this round is that a little crud on the taper in the chamber goes a long way toward causing jams. Much more so than other cartridges. Now that doesn't matter for a guy shooting a few rounds in a gunfight, but for competition, or extended range sessions it is not desirable. My 45's go 500 rounds with no probs. After about 200 rounds of 357 sig, the guns can get unreliable.

41 mag? I dunno. Don't have experience with it. But it doesn't seem to have any catalyst for it to jump out from its "between" 357 and 44 status.

40 S&W managed to jump out between 9 and 45 because of LE adoption rates, and its ease of piggybacking on existing 9mm designs. I think there's a lot to be said for a new cartridge being able to be easily adapted to existing designs.

 

[Caliburn]

Great discussion here, guys! It answered a lot of things that had been rattling in the back of my mind.

Does 10mm have a last name, like 9x19 something? What's the OAL?

 

[JiminCA]

10mm nominal OAL is 1.260. 10, 45, and 38 super all have max OAL's of 1.270-1.280. Most load them in the 1.260 range.

10mm has no "last name"

 

[mrapathy2000]

you mean the metric name for 10mm. probably 10x25

 

[roo_ster]

Alduro:

I loved your dad's choice of weaponry with the exception of .41AE, which might have been a decent round, but was killed by .40S&W.

.45GAP
"Oh, and yes the GAP is ballistically equal too or superior to the .45 ACP."

Close, but not quite accurate, I'd think.

To equal the .45ACP, the .45GAP has to operate at higher pressures. So, a .45GAP with 200gr bullet can equal a .45ACP with 200gr bullets. If you open the envelope to .45ACP+P or .45Super, the .45GAP will lose out. Until this thread, I had not heard of a 230gr .45GAP round...looks equal, MV & ME-wise to .45ACP hardball, from what Winchester claims.

I guess it might be a way for a manufacturer to cheap out and make a ".45" without developing a new frame to handle the .45ACP.

My prediction....it'll be a flash in the pan and then go the way of the .41AE.

.38Super
Good round that will not see the poularity of 9mm & .40S&W due to the requirement for a larger frame. Will stick around in competition indefinitely. Can you say "21 roung magazine in a 1911 platform," children?

.41AE
Died in infancy.

.357Sig
Another 9mm. The world is littered with defunct 9mm cartridges. .357Sig might stick around in some LE/CCW applications. Not the equal of .357Mag. 9mm +P+ is its biggest threat.

.44Spl
A fine round. If you like yours big & slow, .44Spl is the way to go. .44Spl owes its life to the many .44Mag guns around...taht most can't shoot well when stoked with .44Mag.

10mm
A true magnum round in an autoloader. Not nearly as fearsome as most describe. Not equal to the .41Mag, but close.

.41Mag
Will remain a handloader's round & will not pick up a following.

 

[gripper]

I like the 5-5.5 inch .357's myself(hard to find in a revolver,I know).>357 sig? I like that fine as well,mostly due to the efficient use of case volume,slick feeding&reliability(bottleneck case),and th eease of swapping calibers(.40)via a barrel cahnge in most guns.
Hey,on that note,what about .45Super conversions( you stilkl can shoot >45ACP in same barrel) and a .400 corbon (.45 necked down to .40)barrel? Talk about versatile......