38 S&W loads / Dirty Unique problem

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Esoteria

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So I've been reloading 38 S&W for a little while now, and I really like shooting the Webley. Here's my load data:

125 gr LFP (coated) - 3.3 gr Trail Boss - 805 FPS w/ ~80 FPS extreme spread
125 gr LFP (coated) - 3.2 gr Unique - 710 FPS w/ ~45 FPS extreme spread
(note that the spread values are pretty high, but I attribute that more to using an AutoDisk measure on a turret press than anything else. I'm not expecting a lot of consistency with this method)

I switched over to Unique since it's been easier to find lately and cheaper per grain. Also I figured it'd do well since it kicks so much butt in low power .45-70 loads, which has a similar velocity-to-bullet-diameter ratio (but that may be where the similarities end).

Anyway my Unique load, while more consistent in velocity (surprisingly -- Unique seems to meter poorly for me), is quite dirty. I usually get 3 or 4 flakes of unburned powder per round and another few flakes worth of other stuff (possibly more unburned powder, just broken up). The Trail Boss load was solid right from the get-go. My original .45-70 loads with Unique were also pretty dirty but my current loads burn nice and clean. Frankly I don't remember what I changed to make it work better.

I tried a tighter crimp, but I couldn't do much more because the cannelure is only so deep. The tighter crimp seemed to improve consistency in muzzle velocity (although it didn't improve the average), but did little else.

I'm guessing the police 200 gr load is better suited for Unique but I'd have a hard time finding that bullet, and it'd be more expensive. On .45-70 I want to say the 405gr bullet loads were cleaner than the 350gr bullets I started with.

Another point of interest is that the bullets I'm using are .359", so they may not be sealing super well. I haven't slugged the bore (is there an easy way to do this?) but presumably it's .360" on a Webley Mk IV.

Anyway, anyone shoot .38 S&W? What loads? Any thoughts on cleaning up my Unique load?

How about Universal Clays? I hear it works OK in lower power/lower velocity loads, and I think I can get my hands on some.
 
I'm here strictly to look at your loads. I won't discuss the halfassery that is still sitting on my shelf where I cut down 38spl cases and loaded them with a little 231. They shoot but not well and it's not advisable. I do see much more consistency with .361 lead bullets (not sure where I got them) than with the plated .358 bullets.
 
A faster powder would be better suited for .38 S&W IMHO, especially with a 125 Gr bullet. I am using N320. N310 was a bit to quick/touchy under a 148 or 158 Gr plated bullet.

Have any Red Dot, WST, American Select, Bullseye, W-231/HP-38, Zip, etc....?

If you bump up the charge of Unique do it .1 Gr at a time. I agree, the heavier bullet would be better suited to Unique.
 
I've been really happy with the Starline 38 S&W brass I got. Might be a little early to call it with only about 5 loadings each, though.

There's .361" bullets available from Penn I think, but also MBC:
http://missouribullet.com/results.php?category=5&secondary=29

I'll be getting some next time I order, I just haven't taken that plunge yet. I've been a fan of the coated bullets for my .357 because they keep the gun and my hands noticeably cleaner when shooting higher volumes (100+). It's most of the advantages of plated/jacketed bullets that I care about at a reduced cost.
 
The Starline is good stuff, although I have ruined a couple of cases by bulging it near the base when going up too fast on the charge.

.1 at a time my friend, .1 at a time. :)

I haven't tried it, but I bet coated .358 bullets would not lead in .38 S&W, which would really increase you selection of bullets for it. I have some coated 158 Gr SWC's that measure .358. I need to try it.
 
@Walkalong
I do have Bullseye. It's my favored load for low-recoil .357 magnum. .38 S&W's been hard to find data for, or at least any data that's either backed by a manufacturer or been tried by more than the one person saying it worked for them.

I suppose I'll start with about 2.0 grains and work up to maybe 2.4 in hopes of getting back to 800 FPS. I believe the Webley is quite strong for a top-break but I have no particular interest in maxing out the velocity on .38 S&W. Just need a good high-volume load to settle on.

If Bullseye does work at 2.x grains that'll be fantastic, as it'd be even cheaper than the Unique load and should meter better. Thanks for the suggestion.
 
I am using 2.7 Grs of N320 with an X-Treme 158 SWC loaded @ 1.075 OAL. It gives just under 700 FPS in my 5" Victory Model, ands appears to be safe in my guns. I have no data to back it up, so use at your own risk.

2.6 grs of N310 was too much and bulged cases. I don't know what I was thinking. :)

I suppose I'll start with about 2.0 grains and work up to maybe 2.4 in hopes of getting back to 800 FPS
Click to expand...
That sounds reasonable to me.
 
You do know that a few flakes of what look like powder is NOT a problem?
Find a load that works. First, slug your barrel--it isn't hard.
You know that you are shooting a very light bullet for the cartridge (your gun was made for a 200gn bullet--.38-200?) and using, most-likely, an undersized bullet. I doubt that more crimp would do anything for you.
Since it is a small case and low pressure, it would follow along with other such cartridges and do best with Bullseye, 231/HP38, AA2, Red Dot, N320, and Solo 1000.
Unique will meter through my Auto-Disks as well as in any other measure and, generally, as well as any other powder. I shake the measure to settle it and throw at least 10 charges before weighing and then continue to throw charges until the charge stabilizes at +/- 0.1gn and then start loading.
If you can't stand the metering issue, then you are a prime candidate for a powder dispenser.
I recommend you just enjoy the shooting the .38 S&W and wash your hands and arms after, as we all do.
 
Regarding undersized bullets, the coated .359" I'm using are of questionable accuracy. I mean that in the literal sense - I'm not really sure. I noticed a significant change in POI between the Trail Boss and Unique loads (about 2 inches left at 20 yards), but the Webley isn't very easy to shoot accurately anyway, so I wonder how much of it is me vs. the load.
 
@noylj
I'm aware that the unburned powder isn't a big deal. It's just an annoyance that I'd prefer to avoid. I don't like finding powder flakes even when I'm done tumbling (stainless steel media). Part of it has to do with my range being an hour away from home, and there's no place to wash up until 30 minutes back the other way.

Unique hasn't been poor on the metering accuracy, per se, just nothing to write home about, and I've had slightly better luck with the non-flake powders I've used. Overall I'm a big fan of it.

.38 S&W seems to have been made in both 200-gr and 146-gr variants historically, so I don't think 125 is unreasonably light.

Interesting note I picked up from this article on Forgotten Weapons. The author suggests using a hollow base wadcutter for .357" bullets because it'll expand to the larger bore more easily. That might be worth a shot along with the proper sizing.
http://www.forgottenweapons.com/38-sw-the-other-38/
 
I just made a post about trail boss and 38S&W I shoot .361 lead round nose 200 grain bullets for now just ran out and my source is not producing them right now so I got some 148 gr from Missouri bullets....Any way Im not sure how your putting 3.3 grains of trail boss in that case with out compressing it, which is a huge don't do for this powder. I don't seat my 200 gr in very deep and have a max capacity of 2 gr trailboss. You did mention Webley so it cant be 38 spl. So my question is how are you stuffing that much powder in the case? Also for .1 gr less there is no way unique should be producing slower rounds......Im not arguing your data I just am curious about how your stuffing your cases? how are your primers looking? any high pressure indicators?
 
Unique = meters poorly + dirty :)
My autodisk does not like Unique in anything under 5gr. + or - .2gr on lighter charges.
In my autodisk Unique meters worse than any other pistol powder I have tried.
Shoots well though in most loads. Cleans up a bit as pressure increases.
 
What I think is a good practice, would be to match diameter of bullet to cylinder. Bullet should not be able to fall through, but easily pushed thru with a pencil. If lead is soft enough, the forcing cone will size bullet to proper size and fill the barrel properly. Have fun, Jim
 
I load .38 S&W for a Webley Mark III. This is a different pistol, and all the usual disclaimers apply .360 & .361 147g lead were extremely inaccurate. I tried Remington Target 146g and they worked fine, and they are .357. I should have slugged the barrel first and saved a lot of time.
Now I have settled on lead 158g SWC .358 from Missouri Bullet. I don't like the coated.
2.2g W231 works quite well. Not too much 231 around so I worked up a Titegroup load of 1.9g.
Privi Partisan has a 145g LRN that is .358, but I have not shot any yet.
 
Remington .360" HBWC work well with this caliber. I originally worked up a load for these with 3gr Unique for use in a solid frame Iver Johnson. I think Bullseye with the same bullet would really shine as far as accuracy goes.
 
Do not go by the caliber alone. All .38 S&W pistols do not use the same bullet diameter or weight. This is particularly important with a top break.
If you do a web search on caliber and pistol you will be better informed than relying on one site.
 
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