.38 S&W vs. .38Spl

[GeoDudeFlorida]

they look SO CUTE! awww! can’t wait to load & shoot some

Would you mind trying to be just a little less West Coast, please? I’m reading this on an empty stomach and that comment about made me barf.

The .38S&W case is designed for a lightly compressed black powder charge. Black powder burns at the same rate regardless of pressure which makes it a little harder to overload. Loading smokeless in the same case creates a volume issue. Nitro burns differently as the pressure changes and as the internal turbulence changes (Bernoulli effect). I would advise you approach these WC loads carefully. Your Colt is a strong gun but you don’t want to take chances with 90year old metallurgy.

It’s not drastic, just be a little extra cautious. IMO.

 

[Speedo66]

I know the price tag of the Rem/Win ammo is harsh but at least in my experience all my PPU 38 S&W brass was un-reloadable. It's currently in my scrap brass bucket with all the other bad brass. When I first got my Iver Johnson I bought several boxes of PPU and Magtech 38 S&W from Aim Surplus to try out the "new" gun. When I started reloading 38/200 for the Webley MkIV I got a bit later, using that brass the resulting reloads using PPU brass would not chamber. Investigation showed the PPU brass is very thick. The PPU measures ~.014 at the mouth where the Remington and Magtech only measured .012 thick at the mouth. That difference proved fatal when loading proper .361 diameter bullets. I suspect I could have loaded .357 diameter bullet in the PPU brass and it might have worked or at least chambered but that seemed silly in light of having the proper diameter bullets and brass (Magtech and Remington) that did work well with that proper bullet. YMMV

The bullets I have on hand and would be reloading into the PPU cases are copper plated or powder coated .358 158g SWC.

I don’t think I’ll be shooting this gun enough to warrant buying the correct larger diameter bullets. I would think the tiny sights and short barrel preclude any sort of long range accuracy anyway.

 

[Speedo66]

they have 2 S&W 38 break tops for sale at my local! very cheap becuse most of the nickel is gone. But, I’m already invested into 38 S&W, so I might be right behind you

I know you‘re into black powder guns, so that should be no problem for you.

On the other hand, if you wish to load with smokeless, be sure the guns were designed for that.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Would you mind trying to be just a little less West Coast, please? I’m reading this on an empty stomach and that comment about made me barf.

The .38S&W case is designed for a lightly compressed black powder charge. Black powder burns at the same rate regardless of pressure which makes it a little harder to overload. Loading smokeless in the same case creates a volume issue. Nitro burns differently as the pressure changes and as the internal turbulence changes (Bernoulli effect). I would advise you approach these WC loads carefully. Your Colt is a strong gun but you don’t want to take chances with 90year old metallurgy.

It’s not drastic, just be a little extra cautious. IMO.

sorry! protesting & soy lattes makes a bit of a soft bear sometimes. I probably should move back to the South soon.

Anyways… Black Powder loads sounds like a interesting idea. A little 3F lightly compressed load! I did hang out at the BP section for 1/2 a year! Leaned a TON

 

[Mark_Mark]

I know you‘re into black powder guns, so that should be no problem for you.

On the other hand, if you wish to load with smokeless, be sure the guns were designed for that.

I need to take this up with the BP guys.. But again, Black Powder loads are full proof as long as you follow a few rules! That stuff also never goes bad, AC out or not, just keep it dry!

 

[Mark_Mark]

Been looking at reloading tables, they all say for .38 S&W solid frame guns only.

I understand most of the break tops were black powder guns, but mine is a later smokeless version.

Can anyone point to a table for a gun like this? Or is it the weaker break top action itself that’s the problem?

those latch look very delicate in the Break Tops. unlike a modern Uberti replica of a 1875 Army Scofield with a latch like a bank safe

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Been looking at reloading tables, they all say for .38 S&W solid frame guns only.

I understand most of the break tops were black powder guns, but mine is a later smokeless version.

Can anyone point to a table for a gun like this? Or is it the weaker break top action itself that’s the problem?

The Lyman's 44th/45th say that - use the starting loads for older break-tops.

The actions and cylinders themselves are plenty strong - as some of the CASS guys have pointed out, the S&W large frame revolvers were just as strong as the Colt Peacemaker - it's the hinges and latches and their pins that are weak points. The Webley Mk.IV is at least as strong as most solid-frame revolvers of the same era.

 

[Speedo66]

The Lyman's 44th/45th say that - use the starting loads for older break-tops.

The actions and cylinders themselves are plenty strong - as some of the CASS guys have pointed out, the S&W large frame revolvers were just as strong as the Colt Peacemaker - it's the hinges and latches and their pins that are weak points. The Webley Mk.IV is at least as strong as most solid-frame revolvers of the same era.

Their attorneys must have gotten to them, my Lyman’s 49th edition says the listed loads are for solid frames only, break tops are too weak.

Thanks, I’ll try just under the starting load and work up to that.

 

[mcb]

So what Top Break did you get? If its a Webley Mark IV I would run pretty much any reasonable 38S&W published load in that top break. If it's on old Iver Johnson on similar I would probably load a ~150gr bullet at no more than 700 FPS just to be safe.

 

[Speedo66]

So what Top Break did you get? If its a Webley Mark IV I would run pretty much any reasonable 38S&W published load in that top break. If it's on old Iver Johnson on similar I would probably load a ~150gr bullet at no more than 700 FPS just to be safe.

I wish it were a Webley.

It’s a third model Iver Johnson, so smokeless is okay, but certainly not up to Webley standards.

Kind of a crapshoot buying sight unseen, but the ad copy said barrel was shiny with good rifling, and the lockup was tight in SA & DA. We shall see.

 

[mcb]

I wish it were a Webley.

It’s a third model Iver Johnson, so smokeless is okay, but certainly not up to Webley standards.

Kind of a crapshoot buying sight unseen, but the ad copy said barrel was shiny with good rifling, and the lockup was tight in SA & DA. We shall see.

If it makes you feel any better I have put several boxes of PPU, Magtech and Remington modern smokeless ammunition through my Iver Johnsons Safety Automatics Second Model without issue once I fixed its timing. The modern commercial stuff is pretty anemically loaded. I am getting lower velocities from the smokeless than was typical of Blackpowder loads of the era when the revolver was made. Mine dates from 1906 give or take a year if my research is right.

 

[Speedo66]

If it makes you feel any better I have put several boxes of PPU, Magtech and Remington modern smokeless ammunition through my Iver Johnsons Safety Automatics Second Model without issue once I fixed its timing. The modern commercial stuff is pretty anemically loaded. I am getting lower velocities from the smokeless than was typical of Blackpowder loads of the era when the revolver was made. Mine dates from 1906 give or take a year if my research is right.

Thanks for the ammo info.

Where were you able to find information on dating the revolver?

 

[mcb]

Thanks for the ammo info.

Where were you able to find information on dating the revolver?

This forum several years ago if I remember correctly.

 

[Speedo66]

Broke down, couldn’t wait, bought two boxes before the gun has even arrived.

The .38 S&W is the little guy in the lead helmet standing next to his big brother, .38Spl.

 

[Walkalong]

Sweet! Have a chrono? If you do, see what they run out of your top break, should give you something to go by when working up a load.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I’ve had a few 1960’s-era H&R .38S&W top break revolvers and they all ran tighter barrel gaps than my swing out cylinder revolvers with accompanying higher velocities. I should have kept the 3” Defender but just didn’t know what a gem it was until too late.

 

[Speedo66]

Sweet! Have a chrono? If you do, see what they run out of your top break, should give you something to go by when working up a load.

No, unfortunately sans chrono.

I’m going to be in uncharted territory, working up loads with powders I’ve not seen loading data for.

Like porcupines making love, I’ll be proceeding very very carefully.

 

[gobsauce]

I have a bid in on an old break top in .38 S&W, so it’s just curiosity, not need.

Thanks for knowledgeably answering all my questions!

That's the exact same reason I went with a .32 SW short instead of the .38 SW. I don't reload.for either, but I'm gonna start on it.

 

[mcb]

Hodgdon reloading data center has load data for 38 S&W. Just one bullet 145 gr LRN with two powders but there is some data. Older reloading manuals will have data too.