.38 S&W with 200g bullet--penetration tests

Status
Not open for further replies.
In the book Col. Askins on Pistols and Revolvers, Col. Askins described (somewhat graphically) this load's effectiveness (which he found surprising) on a German soldier, who was struck in the back of the head or neck as he was running away. (It was war.) It worked well that time, anyway.
 
MachIV,
Can you give us a photo of your "oldie but goodie"? I'm not even sure what a Meriden is! :) These old vest-pocket and dresser-drawer guns aren't anyone's idea of a hand-cannon, but in .32 S&W Long and .38 S&W, they served well for many decades. While almost completely displaced by .38 SPL, and to a large extent now by semi-autos, even a modest attempt to provide modern ammo could restore many guns in these old calibers to useful service.

We "gun guys" who insist on denigrating smaller guns as worse than useless, stupid, or even suicidal, may have done a lot to convince many non-aficionados to give up shooting altogether. Many people can't spare $$$ for new guns, range time, hi-tech ammo, or a combination of these. I realize more power is generally better, but many citizens would find older, less powerul cartridges could still provide a decent level of security throughout much--perhaps most--of the SD/HD spectrum. Do you want a .32 for a BG on PCP? Of course not. Do most burglars and crime-of-opportunity BGs want to get shot at all? No. So, in the name of awakening everybody to ballistic & firepower improvements & to the threat of crack monsters and PCP fiends, we've made the entire subject unapproachable for many. But far more of us will face garden-variety BGs than will ever face bullet-proof maniacs, so why not encourage people to realistically consider the spectrum of possibilities and responses, rather than insisting on an all-or-nothing approach?

I understand this "specialists' superiority syndrome" in another avocation of mine: history. Every American I've met enjoys a good story, right? But many professional historians get their kicks by ridiculing or at least dismantling any view (or any person, perhaps) that doesn't account for the most recent 300 books on the topic. . . .Most people aren't that focused on it, so simply avoid the embarrassment by not engaging. And what good does that do for the popularity of history?

Personally, I happen to think that history is for all of us, not just for pros. Ditto for shooting & firearms.
 
Lone Haranguer,

Yes, I just got my hands on that excerpt from his book this past week. At 25 yards range, Askins shot the enemy soldier in the right front torso, and the 200g W-W Lubaloy bullet exited the left rear torso. In other words, it was a diagonal through-and-through penetration. Upon entry, the bullet had punched thru the leather combat harness the soldier was wearing. As Askins bluntly stated, "It knocked him heels over jockstrap."

Clearly, non-expanding bullets may drill thru & still miss vitals, failing to stop an opponent. Just as obviously, the opposite can also be true; at a minimum, it's likely that the heavy bullet will reach any vitals it happens to be pointed at when the trigger is pulled. At extreme close range, an expander probably increases the odds of hitting vitals due to its wider diameter--if it indeed expands, and if you indeed achieve a torso hit--not on an extended arm, lighter, wallet, heavy belt buckle, etc. which may change the equation. At longer range, a deep-penetrating bullet probably increase your chances of success, because the bullet is less likely to stop short of the goal line.

In these .38 S&W's I've bought for my wife & daughters, I'm going to see how well they handle a 200g LFP in their snubbies, and either the 200g LFP or the 157g LSWC in their 4" guns. These choices will provide excellent penetration and wound channel (within limits of a solid), while keeping report & recoil easily manageable. I believe that combination will lead to better accuracy & higher confidence in the first place.
 
LouisianaMan said:
why not encourage people to realistically consider the spectrum of possibilities and responses, rather than insisting on an all-or-nothing approach?

Hear, hear!
 
Thanks, jhv2, for the moral support. Of course, it's easier for me to lecture because I have made the exact same mistakes I decry in my mini-sermon. . .and time is slowly teaching me my limitations! :)
 
Great project Louisianaman. I have shot .38 S&W in my old Victorys for years. As a point of interest, I have some late British .380 rounds. They are FMJ's and it might be interesting for you to compare them to your loads. I have not pulled one down to check bullet weight or anything, but if you'd like to try them, I have a factory box of 12 rounds I could send you. It would be interesting to see how they compare to your modernized handloads.

(We all know that the British service round called .380 is the same as our .38 S&W, don't we.)

Email me at daddy_jeffs at hotmail dot com if you want me to send them out to you.
 
LC, 336A, and Cosmoline,

Thanks very much for the feedback!

LC92, you are definitely a hero of modern ballistic science! I'm sending you an email momentarily for the 178g Brit .380 Rimmed ammo. I will make CERTAIN to take good photos, chrono it, and see how it penetrates. I'll also strive to put together a milk jug "entrapment" that will allow me to capture one or more of the FMJ slugs, so that I can measure & weigh them.

I won't shoot it UNTIL I get my hands on an overcoat, or at least a piece of one :) We'll do our own test of the old war story about the Brit round failing to penetrate a German overcoat. Maybe so, maybe so, but it seems unimaginable unless the ammo was faulty. And I've seen lots of reports stating that much of the old surplus ammo was either poorly manufactured or had decayed in storage. Heck, the only actual squib load/BIB I've ever experienced was a military surplus .45 ACP round. . . . Anyway, whatever overcoat I scare up will also get a taste of various lead bullets for comparison with the FMJ.

336A, I'm about to double-check that link you provided, as it's a great topic. When it comes to shot placement, I have concluded that I have little faith in my ability to pick a spot in an HD situation. Assuming low visibility, possibility of a shot up to 60', plus the likelihood that the BG would be relatively hardened, athletic and wary. . .plus my oft-mentioned leather furniture for him to dive behind. Likelihood that I shoot by surprise? Very little. I suspect any shot would be at a very vague, diving & twisting target. With leather sofa, upraised arms, possibly coat & hoodie, cell phone, wallet chains and belt buckles to shoot through. . .I really want my slugs to be able to get to the proverbial boiler room, and overpenetration is the least of my concerns.

My own personal HD sidearm is a .45LC Mod 625-7, loaded with 255g LFPs at 870fps, but my secondaries are .38SPLs loaded with 200g LSWC-K @ 750. Wife & daughters have the .38S&Ws.
 
Scientists, ballisticians, and countrymen, lend us your minds!

Guys, please read these thoughts & poke holes in them. My Dad was a chemist, and my nephew is one, but the scientific gene skipped a generation in yours truly :)

Hypothesis: a. Brits chose .380/200 for its deep penetration and blunt-nosed smashing effect when it hit bone, plus it "pushed right through" when it hit target. (NOTE: at this time, I don't know the barrel twist rate of Enfield/Webley revolvers, so cannot account for this factor yet.)

b. American police, etc., using the Colt New Police (.38S&W/200, with flat nose), probably had the same results. Ditto for those using the Winchester factory cartidge, with its very blunt nose.

c. American police, etc., using the "pointier" Remington .38S&W/200, probably were more likely to experience tumbling, as the pointier, even longer, perhaps less stable bullet tumbled when it hit the target, as it was only marginally stabilized.

d. Tumbling may also have partially resulted from use of S&W revolvers, with their slow twist of 1:18 3/4". Possibly the faster-twist Colts stabilized the bullets more fully, reducing likelihood of tumbling with any .38S&W/200 ammo. Likewise, faster-velocity 200g loads, such as the .38 SPL "Highway Patrol" load of c. 730-770 fps, may have been more stable & therefore less likely to tumble.

e. Possibly, changing barrel lengths from longer to shorter (i.e. to snubbies) may reduce velocity and stability of one or more loads to the marginal stability point, and cause a load to tumble in a snubbie that doesn't normally tumble in a 4" or longer barrel. Additionally, it is imaginable that a gun/load/bullet combination that is stable at close range, could become unstable as its velocity decays to a critical point over longer ranges.

f. Based on (a) thru (e) above, I hypothesize that the famous "tumbling" effect was more likely with "pointy" bullets at low vels (c. 600 or lower) when fired from S&W snub-nosed revolvers, whether in caliber .38S&W or .38SPL, and at relatively longer ranges. Conversely, that blunt bullets were unlikely to tumble in general, and even less likely at close range, when fired from Colts, 4" S&W's, or in higher-vel loads such as the "Highway Patrol" loading.

PROPOSED EXPERIMENTAL METHOD: attempt to obtain an adequate supply of both "pointier" bullets and blunt designs. Develop loads of c. 600, 700, and 750 fps with both bullet styles, to approximate .38S&W, .38 Colt New Police or .380/200 British, and .38 SPL "Highway Patrol" loads. Test each load from Colt, S&W and even Enfield/Webley revolvers against water jugs and wet newspaper, to determine which factor, or combination of factors, is more likely to give a tumbling effect. Test at close (7 yds), medium (25 yds) and long (50 yds.) range.

If we can succeed in identifying any real trends, we may have some decent answers even before we get our hands on British 1920s testing results and analysis. Accordingly, a modern-day shooter can optimize loads for his gun, because he can more reliably anticipate the effects associated with any of the popular loads/vels, bullet profiles, and revolver/barrel choices. For instance, one might learn to use a pointy bullet at low vel with an S&W snubbie if he wants the "tumbling" effect, whereas someone with a Colt may determine that "tumbling" is unlikely anyway, so he should load blunt bullets at the highest attainable velocities. If someone has only blunt bullets, he may forget tumbling completely.

If we can confirm my hypotheses, then it's time for more testing. Who out there has a Colt revolver in this caliber & would like to do some testing? How about Enfield or Webley? And a S&W .38SPL snubbie? Maybe some Remington (or other?) "pointy" 200g bullets?
 

Attachments

  • 200g bullets, L-R Peters, Western lubaloy, Winchester, 158g LRN, 200g Winchester.jpg
    200g bullets, L-R Peters, Western lubaloy, Winchester, 158g LRN, 200g Winchester.jpg
    10.6 KB · Views: 18
  • Remington component 200g LRNs, by bmcgilvray, defensive carrycom.jpg
    Remington component 200g LRNs, by bmcgilvray, defensive carrycom.jpg
    69 KB · Views: 10
LouisianaMan,

Thanks for a great thread! I love 38 S&W, have several top breaks that I would never feed your loads, and a Colt Police Positive that would handle it.

I reload, but I'm not advanced at it and don't have a chronometer. One thing I do is substitute a 148 gr DEWC for the standard LRN with the published Bullseye loads. The bullet is sized to .358 for a 38 special, but still shoots well in the Colt (and the Iver and H&R).

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on that bullet. I suspect it would be similar to your 150 gr swc.

Thanks again for posting your work!
 
Weekender,
Your DEWC is perhaps the premier commercially available choice for making the .38S&W more of a going proposition for either small game or for defense. If I weren't into casting, your bullet would be my primary choice for practice & general purpose use. Its shape is excellent for wound channel, as non-expanders go, and I believe I've read on MidwayUSA.com reviews that the base of the bullet is actually .362, which is perfect for a .38S&W. With standard loads, I imagine it's dead-on with your revolvers' fixed sights.

If you want to play around with heavier bullets, there are many commercially available choices, and we can come up with some load data for you.
 
Hi LouisanaMan!

I have a 5" 1939 Enfield No 2 Mk 1* and a 5" Webley "War Finish" Mk IV. Recent production Fiocchi .380 Revolver ammunition averaged 642 fps velocity for 163 ft-lbs energy out of the Enfield with its 178 gr FMJ "pointed" RN projectile.

From my own ballistics testing, I think the overcoat penetration failure is a bunch of BS, kinda like the "myth" that the MG-42's rate of fire was so fast that it had more than one bullet in the barrel at a time... :confused::uhoh::scrutiny:

Take Care,

Hunter
 
Poor cartridge

LOUISIANAMAN,

I am not sure the .38 S&W is worth the effort. The very low velocity of these rounds will cause a "stabbing effect" with the bullet penetrating and doing leaving a hole that may close up on itself as the tissue surrounding the wound will not have been stretched and damaged. It will be like using a .357 inch wide ice pick.


Back in the 1970's, one of the HANDGUN DIGEST books tested a several types of .38 Special ammo and the 200 grain SUPER POLICE did NOT PENETRATE the side glass on an automobile. This load duplicated the handload you list.

Also, LAPD once carried this load. The chief (I believe it was Daryl GATES) was quoted as saying he liked this load as it would cause MINIMUN INJURY to an officer if the officer lost his gun and was shot with it.

I have found that overly heavy bullets fired from snubnosed pistols frequently tumble. The barrel is too short stabilize the long bullet.

When the Brits issued the .38 S&W, they were downsizing the empire and handguns were falling out of significence as a fighting weapon. Note that they dumped the .38 S&W after WW II during which they actually had to use it. It was issued to officers, non-coms and soldiers not issued a rifle or submachine gun. The soviets did the same thing with the MAKAROV.

I think this is the wrong path. You could try using a light bullet like the 110 grain and try to get it to at least 850 fps. I am just not sure the .38 S&W is worth the effort for a defense round.

Jim
 
.455, "Go Ordnance!" Enjoy shooting your pieces of history, and I'll see if I can "kill" an overcoat for the team :)

Golden, you may not have read the entire thread, which explains what I'm up to. I'm not saying that .38S&W is a top-notch defensive round. I am saying that the guns & caliber meet a certain need for my family, so I'm doing what I can with it. One of those concerns is blast & flash, so higher pressure/vel isn't what I'm after. Mostly, however, the whole thing is a hobby; if it weren't, I'd just buy 'em a J frame snubbie & forget it. The "effort" is the fun of it. And although I welcome everyone finding their own solution(s), I prefer heavy bullets over light ones. Not trying to argue the point here, though.

Finally, I am a retired soldier of 24 years service, 6 spent as a practicing historian at the US Military Academy. I am intrigued by the contradictory claims about this bullet's behavior in its decades of police, civilian and millitary service, so I'm looking into it. And all aspects of cartridge performance aside, the Brits were the last to hold onto a revolver for standard military issue, and after WWII they would have been nuts to retain any revolver for first-line combat use. With the gorilla trigger pull of the Enfield plus the weak FMJ round it could accommodate, they would have been doubly nuts. Revolvers were outmoded for combat duty by WWII, and but I expect if the Brits had kept the original lead 200g blunt-nosed lead bullet, there would have been far fewer complaints about the cartridge.
 
Note that they dumped the .38 S&W after WW II during which they actually had to use it.

Not exactly. They used it through the Korean War, and then replaced it with the Browning P-35 Hi-Power - that had previously been issued in limited numbers - because it used the same ammunition as their sub-machine guns.

Meanwhile the .38 revolvers continued in service, especially in South Africa and India.

During World War, the second largest buyer of S&W .38-200 revolvers after England and her Empire/Commonwealth was the U.S. Army's Office of Strategic Services (OSS), which was in charge of clandestine warfare. Eventually they placed an order for some special ammunition, apparently for use in these revolvers. This ammunition was made to the following specifications:

Cartridge: .38 S&W
Bullet: 125 grains / steel jacketed.
Velocity: 625 FPS +/- 25 FPS @ 25 Ft. from the muzzle of a 4" barrel.

A K-frame S&W revolver could of course handle a lot more, and I suppose that at this point a lot of Internet Tactical Guys will swoon, but to say the least the above requirements are interesting, considering the source.
 
Old Fuff,
I have seen you mention this OSS ammo before, and it is indeed intriguing! I wonder if they specified this ammo for a specific combat purpose, and if so, what was it? I doubt it was merely for training, because why specify steel jackets? And if it was somehow preferred for combat, it it striking that they seemed to be after less "power," not more.

Whatever it was, there's no doubt that the OSS was about the "hairiest" imaginable organization we had in WWII, and probably the one in which someone had the highest imaginable likelihood of using a sidearm as a primary combat weapon. And people in such an organization would not be interested in a cartridge that was a lousy performer.

And if it was intended as a "low recoil" round, what does that say about their assessment of the average individual's ability to use high-power handguns? (And what lessons might we aficionados draw from that, when it comes to recommending handgun/ammo for our non-aficionado friends?)
 
I understood

LOUISIANAMAN,

I understand the fun aspect of it, but not the heavy bullet interest.

I also want to avoid high pressure loads in my alloy frame 5 shot revolvers. However, for a different reason. I found that the recoil could reduce the practical accuracy of these guns when I shoot.
For that reason, I use standard pressure 125 grain NYCLADS in my .38 Special snubnose revolvers and save the 125 +P semi jacketed hollow points for my heavier frame guns.

Have you considered that the recoil increase you get with that 200 grain lump of lead will outweigh using flat nosed, full wadcutter bullets at the same or slightly higher velocity.
All things being equal, a 200 grain bullet will have 1/3 more recoil than a 148 grain wadcutter at the same velocity.

Also, it you are willing to put up with the lead, what about a 125 grain lead hollow point with a gas check. This is definitely a handloading proposition, but may be worth the effort.

If you are interested in the performance of this round, you should check into police departments that used the 200 grain .38 Special SUPER POLICE LOAD. I know LAPD used it and was not happy with the performance.

Jim
 
I think LAMan and the LAPD have somewhat different requirements. Of course the various PDs might benefit from looking into guns their "small statured" employees could actually get hits with, even if of lower power than the standard service pistol.

I recall that 1970s article with speculation on the yawing characteristics of the barely stabilized 200 gr Super Police roundnose. As seen in milk jug tests, flattening the nose stabilizes even these long bullets in penetration.
There are a couple of brands of safari calibre rifle bullets that have capitalized on the same effect and offer flatpoints instead of the old standard Kynoch hemispherical roundnose.
Jeff Cooper had some case studies that showed the Hornady 230 grain .45 flatpoint penetrated farther and straighter than hardball.
 
smaller shooters

Jim WATSON

I actually observed this problem many years ago when I worked for the I&NS. An Inspector, who barely reached 5 feet in height could not qualify with the issue SMITH & WESSON model 13. This was a K frame model with a 3 inch barrel and chambered for the .357 magnum.
The recoil was not the problem, it was the size of her hand. The firearms team was directed to find a solution and eventually bought a RUGER SP 101. The smaller grip allowed her to qualify and solved the problem.

Another officer proved to small to carry the BERETTA 96D when we went to it. I left, so I do not know how that was resolved.

Also, the FBI got into a court case over not letting female agents qualify at the academy with j-frame revolvers, but would allow them to be carried in the field. Several female students going through the academy failed to qualify with the required K-frame, but could qualify with the j-frame. The FBI kicked them out and they sued. The bureau lost the case on discrimination grounds.


JIM
 
Several developments:
1. Ordered the Skennerton book on the Enfield No. 2 today. Will advise when/if it provides good info on the cartridge.

2. Bought the only box of factory .38 S&W I've seen in 3 months, some Remington LRN. Will use it for "control" over chrono & vs. the long-suffering milk jugs :)

3. Received two packets of British .380 Mk 2Z ammo from a kind donor in the Lone Star State. Will chrono, penetration test & publish.

4. Will cast pure lead 200g slugs tomorrow & test later in the week. Ditto for a new 140g LSWC Lee mold I bought--may have to "beagle" it to get it to cast .360ish.

5. Possibly on Sunday, a fellow enthusiast will bring up his 4" Police Positive, in caliber .38 Colt New Police, to provide some comparison results in penetration versus the slower-twist S&W's I'm shooting. He also scared up a 1946 NRA book on pistols & revolvers, with detailed data on this cartridge, to include published vels (and the bbl. length used in testing). I'll post that info soon with these other updates.

6. Will mail some 200g slugs tomorrow to bmcgilvray in TX to shoot thru his 2" Colt and Webley. Will be interesting to see if the differing rates of twist will make any difference.

7. Will call Remington & Winchester tomorrow and request historical information. Wish me luck!
 
I remember reading a column by David Arnold, of Guns and Ammo, about how when he was a South African policeman they shot a fence post with his issue .38 S&W using those 200 gr. bullets. He said the slug bounced off the fence and landed by his foot.

He also wrote it sometimes would not penitrate some of the great coats they wore (I presume when with other gear on.)
 
According to an old Colt bueprint their specified .38 Colt New Police/.38 S&W bore groove diameter is .353-.354, with chamber throats at .3585

Obviously these are on the tight side, and both barrels and chambers may be larger then specified. Then again they may be right on the number!

I do know from previous threads that some members have found they could insert .38 S&W cartridges into Smith & Wesson .38 Special chambers - which you shouldn't be able too do. Colt .38 Special chambers wouldn' take the .38 S&W rounds though, so Colt's may indeed be tighter.

Anyway, if you are using .361 diameter bullets in somebody's Colt be careful.
 
Thanks for the info! Great Job!

Recently I aquired a S&W Regulation Police in .38 S&W. VERY limited on ammo around here, but I found 25 bullets at a gun shop and bought them.. Ran 5 thru it almost immediately, and just love this thing!!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top