trentcwwilson
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Thanks for the info. I had no clue that it's essentially AA2. I've never used it.
Target Wadcutter vs HollowPoint Snub Nose Self Defense
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ljnowell
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If you look under my username I have a thread here about it. Many people won't buy it because it's a European import, but they don't realize that AA#2 was an import for many years also.
trentcwwilson
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I believe you. It's great for 357. Fills the case well, and at the max of 6 grains, she's a little thumper as well.
Zendude
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Would there be any advantage in something like a 158 grain SWCHP that is jacketed instead of just pure lead? Or would it be no better than any standard shape JHP bullet?
trentcwwilson
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Or a semi jacketed. I'd be interested in that.
F-111 John
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For me, part of the defensive use of a snubbie is reloading. JHPs load much easier for me with a speedloader than wadcutters.
trentcwwilson
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That is a big flaw of wads. Being a revolver, you might have to reload and any rounded or flat point bullet will load better than wads.
ThomasT
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Stu1Ritter Where did you get those bullets. I have seen them before but don't remember who sells them.
I found these but I don't think they are the same brand.
http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.p...id=226&zenid=2f34abfb07ad3313992be556b761fc2c
I found these but I don't think they are the same brand.
http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.p...id=226&zenid=2f34abfb07ad3313992be556b761fc2c
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trentcwwilson
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+1 Those are awfully pretty.
USSR
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I do!
I cast 158gr hollowpoints with an alloy that will give me proper expansion at the intended velocity (~900fps with a 2.5" barrel, and ~950fps with a 4" barrel). Yes, placement is "King" and penetration is "Queen", but to enable adequate penetration you need the high SD that is only available with a heavy bullet. So, forget about the 110-135gr bullets. Just MHO.Don
redbullitt
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I like those big fat wadcutters, but not really my choice for people. Hogs and nasty critters though, that is a different story.
For a town gun or two legged varmints I think that speer short barrel load is hard to pass up in a snub.
For a town gun or two legged varmints I think that speer short barrel load is hard to pass up in a snub.
trentcwwilson
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What was your test medium?
Apples to oranges. Because most humans aren't quadrupeds. Humans don't require the depth of penetration to reach the vitals that animals frequently present such as quartering-away shots or even square on shots. 9mm would be towards the bottom of my big game hunting rounds. It's at the top of my defense list.
Too little energy/velocity
MARB4
The problem is that the velocity is too low. The wadcutters look good because they do not expand and just pass through. The bad news is that they may keyhole and not penetrate.
The hollow base wadcutter loaded backward comes and goes every couple of years. It was written up several times in magazines as a WONDERBULLET. The problem is that the round is very unstable, so it can go off course and keyhole before it even hits the target. If it does, it will NOT PENETRATE DEEPLY AND MAY NOT EXPAND.
The regular wad cutter load is popular because it cuts wonderful round holes on targets and has very light recoil. I love it as a range load.
I am not sure that is enough for self defense. The old 158 grain lead round nose had a well deserved reputation for penetrating and sometimes overpenetrating. It was also a poor performer and the reason that it was replaced almost universally by the +P hollow point loads.
If you are using standard pressure 110 grain hollow point rounds or 148 grain wadcutters to keep down recoil, then you have too understand that whatever load you are using, will not be very powerful, especially from a snub nose which robs a lot of velocity.
I still have some old FEDERAL Nyclad 125 grain hollow points. These rounds were unusual because while they were soft lead which allowed them to expand a lower velocities, the nylon coating kept them from leading up the bores.
I carried these when I carried a 5 shot revolver.
I know about the BUFFALO BORE rounds and their high velocities, but what most people do not say is that even if the load is a standard pressure one, the recoil will still be heavier if the bullet is moving faster. Try some and see for yourself.
Try some standard pressure BB loads along with some other manufacturers +P loads and see if the recoil isn't similar.
In a .38 Special, I want a 4 inch barrel and +P loads. The police who have used the 125 grain jhp +P and 158 lead semi wadcutter hollow point found that they worked well, about the same as 9m.m. jhp loads without premium bullets. These loads from a 4 inch or longer barrel have the velocity and therefore the energy to expand and penetrate adequately.
Good luck with whatever you select.
Jim
MARB4
The problem is that the velocity is too low. The wadcutters look good because they do not expand and just pass through. The bad news is that they may keyhole and not penetrate.
The hollow base wadcutter loaded backward comes and goes every couple of years. It was written up several times in magazines as a WONDERBULLET. The problem is that the round is very unstable, so it can go off course and keyhole before it even hits the target. If it does, it will NOT PENETRATE DEEPLY AND MAY NOT EXPAND.
The regular wad cutter load is popular because it cuts wonderful round holes on targets and has very light recoil. I love it as a range load.
I am not sure that is enough for self defense. The old 158 grain lead round nose had a well deserved reputation for penetrating and sometimes overpenetrating. It was also a poor performer and the reason that it was replaced almost universally by the +P hollow point loads.
If you are using standard pressure 110 grain hollow point rounds or 148 grain wadcutters to keep down recoil, then you have too understand that whatever load you are using, will not be very powerful, especially from a snub nose which robs a lot of velocity.
I still have some old FEDERAL Nyclad 125 grain hollow points. These rounds were unusual because while they were soft lead which allowed them to expand a lower velocities, the nylon coating kept them from leading up the bores.
I carried these when I carried a 5 shot revolver.
I know about the BUFFALO BORE rounds and their high velocities, but what most people do not say is that even if the load is a standard pressure one, the recoil will still be heavier if the bullet is moving faster. Try some and see for yourself.
Try some standard pressure BB loads along with some other manufacturers +P loads and see if the recoil isn't similar.
In a .38 Special, I want a 4 inch barrel and +P loads. The police who have used the 125 grain jhp +P and 158 lead semi wadcutter hollow point found that they worked well, about the same as 9m.m. jhp loads without premium bullets. These loads from a 4 inch or longer barrel have the velocity and therefore the energy to expand and penetrate adequately.
Good luck with whatever you select.
Jim
I've carried factory wadcutters in J frame revolvers for years. When I do I have SWC for a reload. HBWC gets good penetration because the hollow base concentrates the weight of the bullet forward making it less likely to tumble.
You can't jack up velocities with HBWC as you can blow out the hollow base. Double base wadcutters, little cylinders of lead, can start tumbling if they hit a bone or dense tissue. Reversed HBWCs expand well, when they work. I experimented with reversed HBWCs back in the 70s and found they often fragmented after shedding the hollow base, sometimes had only one side expand, and due to these issues tumbled often which limited penetration. I found the same issues whether they were cast or swaged.
I prefer to use HBWCs at target velocities. Bullet stays together, is already in an efficient shape, and penetrates well at 650-700 fps.
You can't jack up velocities with HBWC as you can blow out the hollow base. Double base wadcutters, little cylinders of lead, can start tumbling if they hit a bone or dense tissue. Reversed HBWCs expand well, when they work. I experimented with reversed HBWCs back in the 70s and found they often fragmented after shedding the hollow base, sometimes had only one side expand, and due to these issues tumbled often which limited penetration. I found the same issues whether they were cast or swaged.
I prefer to use HBWCs at target velocities. Bullet stays together, is already in an efficient shape, and penetrates well at 650-700 fps.
ThomasT
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Back in about 1986 there was an article in guns & ammo titled "is the 38 dead"? In that article they tested different bullets and performance. The one that caught my eye was a double hollow base wadcutter bullet. No matter which way you loaded it you had a large hollow point.
This made the bullet balanced instead of tail heavy like you get with a reversed hollow base wadcutter. They stayed stable and didn't tumble. Unfortunately they didn't list the maker of the bullet. I was never able to find any. I have given up on reversed WC bullets myself. Sometimes they make perfect mushrooms and other times they hit sideways and flatten the cavity.
I even called Corbin about swaging dies to make these myself. The cost of the dies was over $500. So that idea got shelved.
This made the bullet balanced instead of tail heavy like you get with a reversed hollow base wadcutter. They stayed stable and didn't tumble. Unfortunately they didn't list the maker of the bullet. I was never able to find any. I have given up on reversed WC bullets myself. Sometimes they make perfect mushrooms and other times they hit sideways and flatten the cavity.
I even called Corbin about swaging dies to make these myself. The cost of the dies was over $500. So that idea got shelved.
trentcwwilson
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Wow. This thread has skyrocketed. Didn't think 38 lead would get this much attention in such a short amount of time.
dickydalton
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Truth of the matter is, that a boatload of shooters still love the 38 Special and it still is a very fine defensive cartridge with attributes that make it desirable.
trentcwwilson
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Good trainer as well. My model 19-4 has seen a lot of 105 grain truncated followed with 2.5 grains of clays. I've trained countless women who thanked me for not shoving a 357 in their hands and scaring them away from the real reason we all shoot.
rdrancher
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Looking forward to your test results.
The good old FBI 158gr +P LSWCHP will expand as well as most 110gr 38 loading and penatrate nearly as much as a 148gr target wadcutter. Only reason I would step down from it would be if recoil was too much for a person, then I'd use one of the others and they're pretty close I might let climate choose warm weather 110s cool 148s.
As to loading HBWCs backward I tried it 30 years ago by the time they are driven fast enough to expand accuracy was abysmal, they try to swap ends in flight like a shuttlecock.
As to loading HBWCs backward I tried it 30 years ago by the time they are driven fast enough to expand accuracy was abysmal, they try to swap ends in flight like a shuttlecock.
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